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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Are architects artists?
« on: August 02, 2002, 08:34:48 AM »
Some very good posts on the Fazio thread especially for the newbies from SI.  The thread was getting long but I came away thinking about what a few people said regarding Fazio being an artist and doesn't have to listen to anyone.  I don't really agree but it makes for good discussion.

I heard an interview with John Madden yesterday (now with Monday Night Football) and he said I'm no announcer, I'm just a football coach.

Obviously Nicklaus, Weiskopf, Crenshaw, etc are golfers who fell into golf architecture.  Isn't Fazio a construction worker- foreman or golfer who fell into architecture and has some talent with design and routing?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Are architects artists?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2002, 08:42:19 AM »
Isn't golf architecture part art, part craftmanship and part science?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are architects artists?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2002, 09:09:49 AM »
Brad Klein's quote from his book 'Rough Meditations' on page 91 is a good way to describe modern golf courses and architecture:

'The modern golf course is a curious combination of engineering and artistry.  When it comes to drainage, for instance, the water has to run downhill.  As for growing turf, it's a matter of fitting the right grasses to the proper soil and climate.  But that's only half the achievement.  The real creativity comes when it's time to build something that's beautiful and memorable -and that functions as well.  That's why it is helpful to think about the golf course as a working landscape.'

To me an architect is an artist and more.  He or she must mould and shape the ideas of a client.  The sand a dozer works is much like the clay a conventional artist moulds for a statue.

However an architect has a not only a client to deal with but many other outside agencies such as laws, members etc..

Brad if you are reading this..you are the best really love you work.  We will have to meet up again one day.  I will be based in Edinburgh for a year from October so if you are around drop in we have a large guestroom.

Brian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are architects artists?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2002, 09:11:16 AM »
Yes, among other attributes.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: Are architects artists?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2002, 09:21:27 AM »
No.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are architects artists?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2002, 10:04:21 AM »

Quote
No.
Kelly:  How would you describe yourself?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are architects artists?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2002, 10:14:20 AM »
I played Wolf Creek in Alberta with Rod Whitman last year.  I left the course after hearing him talk about it and came away with the thought that he is completely an artist.

Is he a skilled builder, engineer, manager, maybe, but without his artistic ability, Wolf Creek would not be what it is.

That said, I am more interested in hearing why Kelly Blake Moran feels he isn't.

As well as others opinions.  I really respect what Brian Phillips said.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are architects artists?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2002, 11:37:50 AM »
I lilke to think I am.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: Are architects artists?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2002, 07:36:42 AM »
I think artist operate in different ways for different reasons.  Traditionally,  art might be restricted to painting and sculpture, in such cases what they create is not necessarily created for a purpose, although it may be heavy on symbolism, on personal discovery, but it does not answer to anyone like a client, or to a design program, even if it is a commissioned piece.  An artist unlike an architect often times creates for no purpose other than their own need to express visually there interior self.  Nothing more.  Despite the modern trend to have art make political and social statements, art is not that, at its best it is without purpose.

An architect has a client, a design program, a requirement to answer to function.  Their work has a purpose.  Certainly there are overlaps between the disciplines, but those overlaps do not mean architects are artist, or artists are architects.  There should be comfort and honor in saying you are an architect or designer, but to call  a golf course architect an artist is unnecessary, sure some portion of the work is artistic, but many people participate in that portion of the work that is artistic, but they are not artists.  That plays loose with a term that respectfully should be reserved for those professionals whom are artists in the traditional sense.  Much of what we all do day to day has artistic moments, expressions, but we are all not artist.  I think some want to claim the title to boost their self esteem, ironically when school budgets cut the arts programs first, those same people probably sigh with relief that their kids sports programs were not touched. You can not have it both ways.

I would say I am a golfer first and foremost.   I am most happiest when I am playing the game.  Some time back I was involved in a project on which Willard Byrd was the landscape architect.  I remember him saying he did not enjoy playing the game anymore, that he was most interested in sailing.  I always thought how sad that was, that clients would hire a man to design their course and he had no passion for the game. If I reach that point I hope I have the integrity to quit designing, and allow real golfers to occupy my former space.  

I think you should be a passionate golfer first because that type of person will likely have the most positive impact on the game.  Management companies are full of golfers but they would send the game down the river for a buck.  Some developers would do the same.  Incidently, I think the most positive impact on the real estate golf community will come from those magnificent developers that believe and practice the concept of traditional neighborhood development or new urbanism.  Under that environement golf course residential communities will reach a very high order.

Really, the artist, architect debate is fun but not meaningful. So, all these guys can call temselves artist and it means nothing.  The term is used so loosely that it has lost meaning.  Real artists know who they are and they probably resent your loose manner with the word, but more than anything they just find those who call themselves artist amusing and ignorant.   I think first and foremost I am a golfer, then a golf course architect.  Someday I hope to be an artist.  Contemporary realism is tremendously exciting and I would love to be trained in it.  Golf in the morning, paint in the afternoon, spearhead a junior golf program and change the life of some little kid through this magnificent game.  Is there really any need for more?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Are architects artists?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2002, 07:56:19 AM »
I am reminded of an article giving praise to William Freimuth. His influence on Farmington is massive. But his description of being a landscape archie was more about pulling together all the people and thier variables, and then making them work. His apparent selfless approach to projects is probaly why they turn out so wonderful.

Can you imagine working for some egomaniac and having to listen to the inevitable pedantic pissant pontificate about HIS vision.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are architects artists?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2002, 09:33:56 AM »
At the risk of overstating or misstating, I think KBM is probably still quite young and refreshingly enthusiastic while going through a process of self-discovery.  I like his thoughts in general about artistic expression and professional craftsmanship and artisan abilities, and it seems to me as if he is dedicated to well reasoned career goals.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

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