[BCrosby]

Tom Birkert -

This discussion of the 10th at Riviera brings to mind the 8th at Sunny Old, another drivable par 4. The difference is that the 8th at Sunny Old has a relatively large green. It's fascination is due only in part to its bunkering and green position. A dramatic ridge running through the heart of the green seals the deal. A great little hole. It deserves more attention. Evidence that great short part 4's don't need to have small greens.

Bob    

[Pat Burke]

I should know that, and I don't.

My best guess would be that it's only 30-35 feet wide and about 90 feet long.  That's not the smallest green in the world, but the combination of narrowness and tilt (it tilts a bit to the left) makes it pretty hard to hit from the right 2/3 of the fairway.

Google Earth measurements agree Tom.  About 28 feet wide at back 1/3          30+ at middle    bit wider in front 1/3
close to 100 feet length
Well done!

Pat:

When I worked for Pete Dye, he said to me one time (when I was headed overseas) that it would be a good idea to know the dimensions and elevation changes of some classic holes.  He said that when somebody questioned your design, if you could tell them that the 11th at St. Andrews had four feet of fall from back to front [and your hole that they were criticizing had less than that], it would shut them up.

So when I went to Britain, I made sure to find out the dimensions of some of the more famous and controversial holes.  I was surprised to find that the most controversial holes shared a common dimension ... the Road green at St. Andrews, the ninth at Ballybunion, and several others paced off at between 40 and 45 feet across.  With a long club in your hands, that's hard to hit.

I know I have paced off the tenth green at Riv, but I couldn't remember the results.  I do remember that it was less than ten paces wide at the back ... which, according to the old rule of thumb that the cup should not be cut less than five paces from the edge of the green, is problematic.

Very cool.  Love that kind of stuff from those who "do".    Tell a lot of my better students to always look backwards when playing practice rounds to help determine lines.  Any argument, I can always say that Ben Hogan did it

[Jonathan Cummings]

Anybody know the square footage of The Postage Stamp?  What is the smallest green (and area) out there??  I wrote a review a few years ago on Creighton Farms outside of Leesburg, VA.  Jim Lipe can correct me but the 14th at CF has a green on the order of 2000sf.  JC

[Tom Birkert]

Tom Birkert -

This discussion of the 10th at Riviera brings to mind the 8th at Sunny Old, another drivable par 4. The difference is that the 8th at Sunny Old has a relatively large green. It's fascination is due only in part to its bunkering and green position. A dramatic ridge running through the heart of the green seals the deal. A great little hole. It deserves more attention. Evidence that great short part 4's don't need to have small greens.

Bob    

Bob,

That's where we differ - I think the 9th on The Old is a bit too easy nowadays. As long as you miss the green left you're left with a relatively trouble free chip up the green. In summer it's not even a driver, but a 3 wood or hybrid. Personally I'd like to see some subtle changes made to make it more like the 10th at Riviera - by making the green more narrow and deeper bunkers to protect the green. Changes were made to the 3rd to make it a tougher drive and more difficult approach and I think they've generally been well received and have made it a better hole.

Of course, there is the psychological factor on 9 whereby it's one of the few holes where one is disappointed with a par which can impact on the next hole, a very tough long par 4.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

I defer to your experience with the 9th (sorry, I had identified it as the 8th). I do think, however, that the ridge through the green adds interest to even short, lofted approaches or bunker recoveries.

Bob

[Bill_McBride]

I watched the broadcast yesterday and saw a couple of players (Couples, another guy) drive the ball onto the green and see it stop within a few feet due to all the rain they've had in LA!

In the paper this morning Stricker was quoted as saying he always hits hybrid as far left as he can.  Maybe that intelligent thinking is part of why he's got a 5 shot lead.   

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