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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2008, 08:03:49 AM »
#15 at TPC River Highlands.  Perfect green for a hole of its length.


JMorgan

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Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2008, 08:19:56 AM »
Tom D,
What about the back of 16 at Pac Dunes? I hate that part of the green. Headed out in late March to try and conquer that again. Also enjoy #9 at Tanglewood in W-S, NC or # 11 at TOC.
Thanks,
Greg

Tanglewood Championship #9:





From Frank Pont's website, TOC#11:




JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2008, 08:21:43 AM »
On the category sitting pretty, I like subtlety and #9 at Myopia Hunt Club is my favorite. Anybody can bury elephants in green complexes and call it character but it really doesn’t match up to a well-designed green with plenty of action that doesn’t look ostentatious.

 This green is a small to mid-size putting surface that is pitched slightly forward. Surrounded by a collection of deep and nasty bunkers, the beauty is in the soft contours. The architect incorporated a smooth inward slope on both sides of the green and collar, and any shot that lands on the outside edges will be kicked toward the center. Perhaps the architect thought that he had built enough bad stuff around the green site and he needed to reward a good but not great shot.







JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2008, 08:31:12 AM »
I have said it before and will say it again that my favorite is #14 at ANGC.  I love it that there aren't any bunkers.  I find it to be very intriguing that when it is on the right side you really need to hit the ball on the left side of the green and I just love the contours of the thing.  It's a thing of beauty.
Not a great photo, but here is #14 green ANGC:
 


JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2008, 08:39:07 AM »
The Oyster Harbor greens fit the landscape and their respective holes perfectly. They are very much like the greens at Salem.

There are exceptional greens on both courses, two most notable are # 13 at Salem and #2 at Oyster Harbor. The beauty of both courses is that they both have eighteen greens that pose differing and challenging aspects to both the chipping and putting game. All the greens at both courses have rear pin positions that are draconian and the areas of safety do not offer easy two putts.

The second hole at Oyster Harbor is 467 yards long, no elevation change and I remarked to the member I last played with ther that I thought that the hole was too short. He replied that it fit perfectly; "on in two and three putts".

The greens at # 2 are impossible for the normal golfer. They defeat the best chippers and I have seen very good putters putt right off the greens there.

Brae Burn has a wild set of greens and I would put forth the green on the fourth hole as one of the most confounding in the annals of Ross.

#13 green Salem:




K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2008, 08:40:46 AM »
Ray/JMorgan,

That ninth green at Myopia really interests me.  Can you tell me the length of the hole?  Thanks.

Kyle

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2008, 08:44:36 AM »
On a related note ... can someone tell me:

1.Who designed/built the greens for Langford and Moreau?
2.How much of the Perry & Press Maxwell green work still exists at Augusta?

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2008, 08:46:46 AM »
Ray/JMorgan,

That ninth green at Myopia really interests me.  Can you tell me the length of the hole?  Thanks.

Kyle

Kyle, here is Ran's write-up:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/myopiahunt1.html

Carl Rogers

Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2008, 08:56:01 AM »
It has slowly or finally dawned on me that shaping is like handwriting or writing styles.  No two people could do it the same way even if they tried.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2008, 08:57:14 AM »
Ray/JMorgan,

That ninth green at Myopia really interests me.  Can you tell me the length of the hole?  Thanks.

Kyle

Kyle, here is Ran's write-up:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/myopiahunt1.html


Thanks.  135 is about the distance I was hoping it would play.  What a beautiful short par three.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2008, 09:03:17 AM »
Dr. J:

I must have the contours of 1000 different greens in my head.  Actually, more than that, since I've built about 500 in my own work now.  One personal favorite?  You've got to be kidding.  

I think the most original I've ever seen is the 12th at White Bear Yacht Club in Minnesota.  The green falls away sharply to the back, with a pronounced shoulder at either side in the front.  To take the steam out of the approach, you play to either edge of the fairway, then bank your approach off the shoulder on the opposite side.  If you drive it straight down the middle of the fairway, there's no help, just a green falling away at four percent.

Most available pin positions:  the 13th at The Kingsley Club.  But I think that one is over the top.  I much prefer the 13th at Barnbougle.

Best pin position for the money:  back left on the 13th at High Pointe.  If you go straight at it from the fairway you'll probably go in the rear bunker ... the clever approach is to play up to the back middle of the green, and the ball will make a U-turn from there and come back to the hole.

Best Stimp-independent surface:  the 15th at Stonewall (North).

Just plain sitting pretty:  the 15th at Cypress Point.  Also love the 15th at Bandon Trails for its end-of-the-little-valley setting.

Who builds the best greens?:  Four of the best greens-builders in the world today are on my payroll -- Eric Iverson, Brian Schneider, Brian Slawnik, and Jim Urbina.  Which of them is best depends on what style you prefer.  (At different times, I've also had Jerame Miller, Tom Mead, Gil Hanse, Mike DeVries and myself as greens shapers, none of whom would take a back seat in that area of design.)  
          Historically, I guess it would be the Wood brothers, who worked for Perry Maxwell.  Or maybe Old Tom Morris himself.

Tom's #13 at Barnbougle:





And the CPC #15 green:




paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2008, 09:10:12 AM »
Great exercise James.

I think those line drawings from Barnbougle are very classy.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

wsmorrison

Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2008, 09:29:08 AM »
Personal Favorite:  18th at Merion East (Hugh Wilson)
At the end of a very long rolling par 4 is a pretty large green (6600 sf) which is crowned along the line of play.  The front half of the green, beyond a steep upslope kept firm and fast, slopes back to front while the rear half of the green slopes front to back, the speed of the putts enhanced by the grain running front to back towards the 11th green on the other side of Ardmore Avenue.  Recovery shots out of the thick rough beyond the green are particularly tough, especially knowing that a shot that is too long or too hot will easily run off the green and down the slope fronting the green.  There is a nice shoulder on the right beyond a deep flanking bunker offering a tough Sunday pin position.  There are a lot of subtle interplays of slope on the green making reading and executing putts very demanding.  To the left of the green are two large and deep bunkers.  Even though the flanking bunkers are particularly menacing, the opening is large enough to account for the typical approach distances.

The 3rd at both Merion East and Merion West, 1st at Rolling Green, 8th at Gulph Mills, 2nd and Left 9th at Pine Valley and the 18th at Lancaster CC (as Jim Nagle pointed out) also merit discussions.


Most Available Pin Positions:  12th at Shinnecock Hills (William Flynn)
With the ongoing green expansion program at Shinnecock Hills, the variety of pin positions is being recovered.  Many of these pins are tucked behind bunkers or near falloffs making bold approaches to pins in these areas a high risk/reward proposition.  Many greens at SHGC will provide greater strategic positioning all the way back to the tee.  The 13th isn't one of the greens that has benefited the most with pin positions near features like bunkers or falloffs.  However the green was substantially increased in size.  A low, broad-based mound that was on the left edge of the green is now fully incorporated into the green resulting in some fascinating pin positions and some demanding putts depending upon pin and ball position.  All in all, the green probably got expanded by some 40%.  Given the subtle interplays of slope and little internal contouring, nearly the entire green is pinnable.


Best pin position for the money:  front pin at the 15th at Merion (Wilson, revised by Flynn between 1930 and 1934)
For a short dogleg right par 4 going uphill, this green is a great example of how a short hole and relatively short course can still be a test of golf for all classes of players including the best in the world.  The green slopes back to front, particularly the front 1/4 of the green.  A very large and deep bunker flanks the right side along a diagonal that follows the diagonal of the green.  While it appears somewhat perpendicular to the line of play, a pin on the far right side of the green requires one more club than right center.  There are two bunkers on the left of the green.  There are not a lot of pin positions on this green but they are all great.  The toughest of all is a pin tucked between the flanking bunkers and on the steepest section of a green on the golf course demands a precise approach kept below the hole.  Even though this is typically a short shot, it is a very difficult one.  Approaches that finish above the pin can lead to some very high scores.  This demand puts a lot of pressure on the tee shot.  One wants to hit a long drive so as to have the shortest shot into this pin position.  And what a drive.  The fairway is offset to the line of play with OB just beyond the left fairway margin.  Along with bunkers and rough mounds down the right side, it is a great example of a bite off as much as you dare to with OB threatening shots through the fairway.  All and all a great hole no matter where the pin is, but a front pin is a thrilling. conclusion to this hole.  

Best Stimp-independent surface:  2nd at Pine Valley (Crump)
Perhaps only because this green is about the most challenging in the world no matter what the green speed is.  Of course it gets more difficult as green speed increases, but it is still one of the hardest and best greens no matter how slow it was maintained.

Just plain sitting pretty:  11th at Shinnecock Hills and 3rd at Merion East

These are two of the world's great greens.  The 11th demonstrates how a designer can use a ridge to place a green, particularly a short par 3, with trouble all around.  The 160 yard hole plays almost as hard today as it did 75 years ago despite far better equipment and athletes.  

The 3rd at Merion East is one of the great greens in golf.  It is 48 yards long, though it doesn't appear that way from the tee.  Walking up to the green is always exciting to see where your shot winds up in relation to the pin, which isn't easy to determine even from the 2nd green.  It has some all-world slope integrations and some putts that break the opposite of what many would think (putts from middle left to front left break to the right).

As a bonus, tell us who in your opinion builds/built the best greens?

Maxwell, Wilson, Fownes, Flynn, Colt

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2008, 09:36:01 AM »
Ray/JMorgan,

That ninth green at Myopia really interests me.  Can you tell me the length of the hole?  Thanks.

Kyle

Kyle, here is Ran's write-up:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/myopiahunt1.html


JMorgan,

My apologies if I am missing something obvious.  But Ran's write-up looks like a Courses By Country profile.  Yet Myopia Hunt is not listed in that section of the site.  Are there other course profiles that are similarly not listed in the Courses By Country (or My Home Course for that matter) tabs by can otherwise be found here?  Thanks in advance!

Ed

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2008, 10:05:16 AM »
Paul:

So that nobody thinks by mistake you were accusing me of being classy, I'd like to point out that the line drawings for Barnbougle were drawn by Michael Cocking, who works with Michael Clayton's firm.

That hole usually plays straight downwind, so you need all the help you can get from the back side of the bowls where the hole can be located.

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2008, 10:12:50 AM »
Paul:

So that nobody thinks by mistake you were accusing me of being classy, I'd like to point out that the line drawings for Barnbougle were drawn by Michael Cocking, who works with Michael Clayton's firm.

That hole usually plays straight downwind, so you need all the help you can get from the back side of the bowls where the hole can be located.

Tom, can I ask what sort of earth-work was done on this hole if any?

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2008, 11:24:14 AM »
18th at Olympia Fields North has some great movements and offers a variety of excellent pin placements. Wish I had a picture to post. depending on the tees played it can present a fairly long approach. Can be a hard green to get one close.

David Schofield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2008, 11:31:27 AM »
Tobacco Road #7

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2008, 12:22:23 PM »
It's hard to believe no mention of the greens at Ballyneal so far.  Numbers 6, 8 and 12 have as much internal contour as any I've seen.

Also, numbers 2 and 3 at Sand Hills.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2008, 12:28:35 PM »
One of my favorite greens is at the short par 3 11th at Plainfield.  It has as dramatic a false front as any green I have seen.  Unless the pin is on the back, the false front almost forces you to play past the pin, leaving a very visually intimidating downhill putt.  Now don't get me wrong, it is a fast putt.  But what is so fascinating is that your eye focuses on the false front and creates an illusion that looks as if there is no conceivable way to keep it on the green.  The putt actually doesn't play quite as fast as you think, which often causes the first putt to be left short and leave you with a true knee knocker for par.  So then you hit that one a little firmer because the first one was slower than expected and if you miss it, you will then see the result you feared on the first putt as it races past the hole, catches the false front and rolls off the green toward snowmansland.

Ed

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2008, 12:30:47 PM »
Homer picks.

2, 8 and 17 at Prairie Dunes

8 at Aldarra...

Steve Sayre

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2008, 12:32:40 PM »
Wildest: Dooks number 13
Maybe Aidan could post one of his great pics.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2008, 02:02:10 PM »
Scott, #7 too. Also, 17 is one of the most overlooked.


Here's a side by side of #8 at Ballyneal and #13 at Barnboogle.




What ya'll think?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Brett Hochstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2008, 02:18:44 PM »
*Personal favorite.  Whatever the reason: quirk, shape, entry, defense of hole -- you decide.  But you must tell us why.
#6 Crystal Downs--simple, natural (at least looks that way), and completely original
*Most available pin positions
second the vote on the 13th Kingsley.  I don't think it's too over the top, except the spine leading to the way back is almost impossibly narrow.  Nonetheless, I have figured how to make an easy 4 from anywhere, including that crazy way back position.  Not quite ready to share the gamer's secret on that one, though.  Never know if I'll need it in a match.
*Best pin position for the money
Well, for the money ($15), the back left location on the finisher at Union Lake Golf Course could be it.  No should have ever heard of this course, as it is just a local dump, but they got away with an interesting little hole.  I will try to profile it sometime.
*Best Stimp-independent surface
The 4th at Lost Dunes, or the original closer at Sitwell Park!
*Just plain sitting pretty
The 15th at Cavendish--is there even a green out there in that field!?

Personal Bonus--Bizarre, outerspace, anti-physics green:
15 at Franklin Hills.  I have never seen more horribly misread putts in my life.  The green is built slopeside on a property that is one giant slope. Ross added a little ridge on the low side, which gives the effect of a little saddle when really the lowside is more flat than anything, and that was all took to completely screw with peoples depth perception for years to come.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Amazing Greens
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2008, 04:04:37 PM »
Personal Favorite:  18th at Merion East (Hugh Wilson)
At the end of a very long rolling par 4 is a pretty large green (6600 sf) which is crowned along the line of play.  The front half of the green, beyond a steep upslope kept firm and fast, slopes back to front while the rear half of the green slopes front to back, the speed of the putts enhanced by the grain running front to back towards the 11th green on the other side of Ardmore Avenue.  Recovery shots out of the thick rough beyond the green are particularly tough, especially knowing that a shot that is too long or too hot will easily run off the green and down the slope fronting the green.  There is a nice shoulder on the right beyond a deep flanking bunker offering a tough Sunday pin position.  There are a lot of subtle interplays of slope on the green making reading and executing putts very demanding.  To the left of the green are two large and deep bunkers.  Even though the flanking bunkers are particularly menacing, the opening is large enough to account for the typical approach distances.

The 3rd at both Merion East and Merion West, 1st at Rolling Green, 8th at Gulph Mills, 2nd and Left 9th at Pine Valley and the 18th at Lancaster CC (as Jim Nagle pointed out) also merit discussions.


Most Available Pin Positions:  12th at Shinnecock Hills (William Flynn)
With the ongoing green expansion program at Shinnecock Hills, the variety of pin positions is being recovered.  Many of these pins are tucked behind bunkers or near falloffs making bold approaches to pins in these areas a high risk/reward proposition.  Many greens at SHGC will provide greater strategic positioning all the way back to the tee.  The 13th isn't one of the greens that has benefited the most with pin positions near features like bunkers or falloffs.  However the green was substantially increased in size.  A low, broad-based mound that was on the left edge of the green is now fully incorporated into the green resulting in some fascinating pin positions and some demanding putts depending upon pin and ball position.  All in all, the green probably got expanded by some 40%.  Given the subtle interplays of slope and little internal contouring, nearly the entire green is pinnable.


Best pin position for the money:  front pin at the 15th at Merion (Wilson, revised by Flynn between 1930 and 1934)
For a short dogleg right par 4 going uphill, this green is a great example of how a short hole and relatively short course can still be a test of golf for all classes of players including the best in the world.  The green slopes back to front, particularly the front 1/4 of the green.  A very large and deep bunker flanks the right side along a diagonal that follows the diagonal of the green.  While it appears somewhat perpendicular to the line of play, a pin on the far right side of the green requires one more club than right center.  There are two bunkers on the left of the green.  There are not a lot of pin positions on this green but they are all great.  The toughest of all is a pin tucked between the flanking bunkers and on the steepest section of a green on the golf course demands a precise approach kept below the hole.  Even though this is typically a short shot, it is a very difficult one.  Approaches that finish above the pin can lead to some very high scores.  This demand puts a lot of pressure on the tee shot.  One wants to hit a long drive so as to have the shortest shot into this pin position.  And what a drive.  The fairway is offset to the line of play with OB just beyond the left fairway margin.  Along with bunkers and rough mounds down the right side, it is a great example of a bite off as much as you dare to with OB threatening shots through the fairway.  All and all a great hole no matter where the pin is, but a front pin is a thrilling. conclusion to this hole.  

Best Stimp-independent surface:  2nd at Pine Valley (Crump)
Perhaps only because this green is about the most challenging in the world no matter what the green speed is.  Of course it gets more difficult as green speed increases, but it is still one of the hardest and best greens no matter how slow it was maintained.

Just plain sitting pretty:  11th at Shinnecock Hills and 3rd at Merion East

These are two of the world's great greens.  The 11th demonstrates how a designer can use a ridge to place a green, particularly a short par 3, with trouble all around.  The 160 yard hole plays almost as hard today as it did 75 years ago despite far better equipment and athletes.  

The 3rd at Merion East is one of the great greens in golf.  It is 48 yards long, though it doesn't appear that way from the tee.  Walking up to the green is always exciting to see where your shot winds up in relation to the pin, which isn't easy to determine even from the 2nd green.  It has some all-world slope integrations and some putts that break the opposite of what many would think (putts from middle left to front left break to the right).

As a bonus, tell us who in your opinion builds/built the best greens?

Maxwell, Wilson, Fownes, Flynn, Colt

#11 SH (1-3) and #3, 15, 18 Merion East (4-6):













Here, also, is the stimp-proof #2 at PV: