What courses should the PGA play to shake things up?

[Lester George]

Richmond could support a PGA Tour event on a every three year basis.  Kinloch has already turned down quite a few offers.  But, watch your radar, thats about to change.  

Hell, we just lost our minor leaggue Braves Team (Triple A) because of regional squabbling.  They were here for over forty years and quite frankly could not work with our new Mayor (ex-Govenor Wilder).

I truly intend Ballyhack to be completly different than anything else in Virginia, I believe we as architects should encourage that because golf courses are getting to vanilla.  

Lester

[M. Shea Sweeney]

J. Kenneth Moore-

"Goofy hole locations are only goofy to those that hit poorly executed shots and refuse to admit that they hit poorly executed shots. If you hit the shot to the correct side of the hole, they are not goofy or stupid."

'Goofy' hole locations are those that do not reward at properly hit golf shot. Tobacco Road has many holes that reward the proper shot, however those hole locations are not difficult to access.

Tobacco Road has plenty of hole locations that are 'difficult', you are correct. However they are also 'Goofy' and do not reward a good golf shot.

Why do you think the staff sets the course up the way it does?

[Chris Cupit]

I would like to see PGA events rotate as well, like they are doing with the BMW championship. I especially wish the Greensboro tournament would move away from Forest Oaks. There are many other fine golf courses in the Greensboro area that could hold the tournament. There are also numerous courses in Atlanta that could host the Bellsouth. Atlanta Athletic, Atlanta Country Club, Bear's Best come to mind.
-I would especially like to see some of the high quality municipal clubs be used for tour events. The revenue generated by outside play coming in to play a tour course would more than make up for the loss of one week's revenue.

I'd love to see the tour return to ACC and the new course(s) at AAC are supposed to be great improvements but do you really think Bear's Best is that good?  Bear's Best is a nice facility and may be the "perfect" outing golf course but a re-hash of some famous holes doesn't inspire much in me.  

 

[John Moore II]

Sweeney-name one pin placement on that golf course that meets USGA guidelines for pin placement, no less the 3 paces from edges, reasonably flat within 3 feet of hole, and would be considered goofy, unplayable, and not reward a well strock shot. But what defines well struck? With a PW, when I have the yardage right, a well struck shot is within about 6 feet. 7 iron maybe 20 feet. And I can't recall any holes at The Road requiring more than a 7 iron approach, unless you go for a par 5 in two and 14 from way back. I would assume that since you play on a college team that your precision is as good as mine. So, how many pins out there that meet standards are goofy or unfair to a well struck shot?

[Norbert P]

 I know it's in America but The Dunhill Cup in Bandon.

 I know it's NOT in America but Royal Dornoch would be so cool, except, of course, for the members and denizens of the quaint burg.

 Okay,  The Mad Russian GC in Colorado. After half the players shoot 59s, they can all spin til they're dizzy in the rotating house off the 18th.  

Speaking of ipecacian delights, Torrey Pi . . . oh, they've already inked that one.

Hmmm. Tour stop. . . . Can we make Tasmania a state?

[John Moore II]

Chris--What about National Golf Links? Bear's Best is the same concept, if not executed as well. I think that BB is just as good as TPC Sugarloaf though.

[Chris Cupit]

Chris--What about National Golf Links? Bear's Best is the same concept, if not executed as well. I think that BB is just as good as TPC Sugarloaf though.

I wouldn't consider mentioning NGLA and Bear's Best in the same sentence!  Really.

I think there is a huge difference in bringing back "template ideas" versus trying to copy "famous" holes.  Check out www.bearsbest.com/Atlanta  


A couple of "signature holes" that are copied:
Old Works in Montana
The Club at Nevillewood in Pennsylvania
2 holes from Sherwood CC in Thousand Oaks California
2 holes from Gleneagles.  They claim Gleneagles is in Pertshire.  Based on what I played I hope there is a Gleneagles in Pertshire since the "real" Gleneagles in Perthshire, while not a favorite of mine, certainly deserves better!

The closest copy is the 12th at Muirfield Village.  

Again, NGLA and BB simlar?  Perish the thought

I thought TPC Sugarloaf, aside from the atrocious 18th,was pretty good.  I caddied four rounds of the PGA tournament for an old room-mate several years ago but never actually played the course.  Great walking/spectator course--NOT

PS  Do you think BB would make the tour use its "Forecaddies" that they force on everyone else  Sorry.  I know it's a cheap shot but I hate the idea of a CCFAD adding another "frill" to try and differentiate itself when it really only drives the cost to play up even more.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Sweeney-name one pin placement on that golf course that meets USGA guidelines for pin placement, no less the 3 paces from edges, reasonably flat within 3 feet of hole, and would be considered goofy, unplayable, and not reward a well strock shot. But what defines well struck? With a PW, when I have the yardage right, a well struck shot is within about 6 feet. 7 iron maybe 20 feet. And I can't recall any holes at The Road requiring more than a 7 iron approach, unless you go for a par 5 in two and 14 from way back. I would assume that since you play on a college team that your precision is as good as mine. So, how many pins out there that meet standards are goofy or unfair to a well struck shot?

well i am not currently on a team right now so maybe my precision isn't as good as yours  

I will answer you later on--

[Kyle Henderson]

Monterey Peninsula CC

Tobacco Road

Match play at MPCC

Modified Stableford at Tobacco

I think another fun format could be achieved by altering one of the WGC events into a team competition.

World # 1 paired with world # 128, #2 w/ #127, etc...

Match play. Thursday: Best Ball, Friday: Scramble, Saturday: Alternate shot, Sunday: Skins (1st six holes worth 1 point each, 2nd six holes worth 1.5 points each, 3rd six holes worth 2 points each)

Possible Venues (just throwing ideas around, given my complete lack of international seasoning):

South Africa: Durban Country Club or Fancourt Links
Scotland: Noth Berwick, Prestwick
N. Ireland: Royal County Down, Royal Portrush, Portstewart

[Jason Blasberg]

The Tour Championship should be moved to Cuscowilla.  

It has plenty of space to hold the venue, the practice facilities are massive and the greens would keep them honest even though the winning score would probably be double digits under par.

[David Stamm]

I'd be afraid the tour would just screw up any of the courses I'd suggest.

[RJ_Daley]

Of course we've already had this discussion, but I'll bring up Erin Hills again.  It has been massively pre-opening hyped.  Now that folks have played it for a full year, many diverse opinions have been rendered.  No secrect that I weighed in on the negative side, when considered along side Chambers Bay for a preference.  

But, as a tour venue, I'll say that Erin Hills would be a potentially very intense competition.  It certainly has the room for the auxillary stuff like tents and parking.  It is close to urban area for lodging and services.  

The course would present a stern challenge as to scoring, but moreso for keeping pace of play going.  It would need plenty of spotters in FWs to locate even slightly errant balls.  The shot demands and putting would be a stern test, along with short game demands.  The length is unquestionably the most severe possible.  But, the shear physical demands of making the lads walk it, without any ferrycart service from green to next tee would also be interesting, for practice rounds and 4 competition days, and heat/humidity of mid summer here in dairyland.  I actually think it would work best in some sort of limitted field sort of event.  

I could even see it being spectacular for the tour championship, end of Sept.  The weather could be anything from cold and raining, to more likely spectacular crisp fall, with great color from surrounding beauty of the terrain wher Erin Hills is located.  

Yes, I'll go with Erin Hills as a ball buster of a tough tour stop, for the tour championship.  It would blow East Lake away, and would have several tour players crying for their mommies.  

[John Moore II]

Chris-I have played Bears Best Atlanta, its not a terrible golf course really. As I said, the concept of NGLA and BB is the same, holes from different golf courses on one course. Same with World Tour in Myrtle Beach. These courses take great holes (ok, not great in the case of Bears Best) and combine them into one course. The only difference in NGLA and either of the others is that NGLA was executed well by great architects and is not considered some kind of novelty as the others are. NGLA a great course? Certainly yes. But the concept that Raynor and CBM used at NGLA is the same as what Nicklaus used at BB. Just Nicklaus used his own work and R-CBM used different people's. The idea is the same.
-I think they should make the tour guys use the club forecaddies--  But I actually enjoyed having the forecaddy when I played BB back in September, very unique I thought.
--And whats the problem with a resort/daily fee club adding a service like that to differentiate itself in a market that is flooded with other public play options?

[Jim Nugent]

I would love to see them try to play Prairie Dunes or Crystal Downs, no matter whether the winning score was high or low.  The same for Seminole.  Yale.  

If they were going to play one of mine ... Sebonack is the one that's built for it, although it would also be fun to see them try The Rawls Course with the wind howling, or Lost Dunes.

Tom, how would you suggest they set up these courses for pro events?  I mean the rough, how wide the fairways, the speed of the greens, etc.  

Mostly the same as for everyday play?  Or would you tighten/toughen/penalize them?  

[tlavin]

The Tour Championship should be moved to Cuscowilla.  

It has plenty of space to hold the venue, the practice facilities are massive and the greens would keep them honest even though the winning score would probably be double digits under par.

This is solid judgment, in my judgment...

[Tom_Doak]

Jim N:  I was assuming they would just play the courses as they found them.  Silly, I know, but one can always hope.  I'd rather not see a Tour event at all than have them mess with any of those courses too much.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Not where but when.

Start the season 1 July.  Play the normal schedule but:
1. Play it in reverse
2. Insert a two-month break for December and January, wherever it falls in the reverse schedule.  Not because of the weather.  Because nobody cares.
3. Only permissible weather delays: a) course underwater; b) lightning.  Red-colored (blue-colored?) balls and glow balls added to conforming list.  Temporary greens if necessary.

[Chris Cupit]

Chris-I have played Bears Best Atlanta, its not a terrible golf course really. As I said, the concept of NGLA and BB is the same, holes from different golf courses on one course. Same with World Tour in Myrtle Beach. These courses take great holes (ok, not great in the case of Bears Best) and combine them into one course. The only difference in NGLA and either of the others is that NGLA was executed well by great architects and is not considered some kind of novelty as the others are. NGLA a great course? Certainly yes. But the concept that Raynor and CBM used at NGLA is the same as what Nicklaus used at BB. Just Nicklaus used his own work and R-CBM used different people's. The idea is the same.
-I think they should make the tour guys use the club forecaddies--  But I actually enjoyed having the forecaddy when I played BB back in September, very unique I thought.
--And whats the problem with a resort/daily fee club adding a service like that to differentiate itself in a market that is flooded with other public play options?

I have also played BB and as I stated earlier it is a fine facility.  I'll go even farther and say if someone was asking for a good daily fee course in the northern 'burbs of Atlanta I'd reccomend BB.  I would warn them that forecaddies are mandatory and will add another $30 to the round.

I play at a course where we have caddies but I don't think the average daily fee player sees much value in it.  If it really was a value add, why not let the market (customers) choose this service if they want to?  I can tell you it is because if this was an option, it would  die--golfers, espicially in the daily fee market will end up deciding they don't need/want the forecaddies.

Also I am not sure I would describe daily fee golf in Atlanta as "flooded with other public play options". The last few years have seen some of the better daily fee options change to fully private models--White Columns, Crooked Creek and I think Birch River has just changed hands and may be "re-branding" as a private.  Most daily fee golf is at least 45 minutes or more from the city limits of Atlanta with many "Atlanta" daily fees being way north on GA 400.

Anyway, BB is a nice, well run facility in good condition but there is litle or nothing architecturally interesting about it.  I still stand by my comment that I wouldn't mention BB and NGLA in the same sentence.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree as to whether coures that try and copy famous holes are the same thing as what MacDonald and others did at NGLA and other courses in the early 20th century.


I'd love to see Tiger, et al play at NGLA.  They would shoot very good scores but who cares--low score wins.  (I would hope for windy conditions though).

I'd also second the vote for Cuscowilla.

What hole(s) did you find interesting at BB?

[Chris Cupit]

Whoops, I did screw up about Gleneagles.  There is a Nicklaus designed course in Pertshire--Gleneagles designed by JN.  My bad.

To beat a dead horse a little more though the idea of JN using his best holes and copying them is not that appealling and I think different than bringing strategic ideas of holes over and trying to emulate the shot values.  Also, after a brief discussion with an old Nicklaus guy (who by the way does give JN a lot more respect than he gets on this board) it does seem that the Bears Best idea is more abouting branding and fitting a "Nicklaus hole" to the land versus trying to design anything unique.

My guess is that JN associates are not thrilled if their job is trying to figure out which old JN hole fits in location "x" or "y".  Also, because you have to make the holes "fit" it  is not even as if you can pickn Jack's best holes to begin with!

Sorry about the Gleneagles screw up

[Wayne_Kozun]

I think they ought to pilot test a few new venues with the Nationwide tour first.  Chambers Bay ought to be put on the agenda immediately, IMHO.

This would take private clubs out of the equation as many would not want to give up the use of their course for a Nationwide event, even if it meant getting a regular tour event in the future.  Some private clubs aren't even interested in hosting major championships.

[JohnH]

Scarlet Course, tOSU...

[J Sadowsky]

Scarlet Course, tOSU...

Okay, them's fighting words

Go Blue!

[JohnH]

Scarlet Course, tOSU...

Okay, them's fighting words

Go Blue!

Played UM's course three times over the years -- enjoyed it.  Got an upset stomach each time, however.  Must have been that toilet bowl in the distance....  

[J Sadowsky]

Scarlet Course, tOSU...

Okay, them's fighting words

Go Blue!

Played UM's course three times over the years -- enjoyed it.  Got an upset stomach each time, however.  Must have been that toilet bowl in the distance....  

Were you playing with Coach Cooper?

[JLahrman]

Seems to me the best example of a very different course the Tour has played recently is Mirasol. I'm not sure I loved the look of it, but it was so interesting to watch the pros have fits with those wildly contoured greens. That was one of the few events I would watch to see the course rather than because there was someone in the field (Tiger) I wanted to see.

I completely agree.  It was maybe three or four years ago when I watched this tournament, and it produced very interesting golf.  All the pros were complaining about the course.  Brad Faxon was quoted as saying something to the effect of "Everybody complains that all the courses play the same way.  Then you give them one that plays different, and what happens?  They complain."

I used to watch far more golf than I do now.  Nowadays I watch the majors, and if I'm home on Sunday for the last hour of the tournament I might put it on.  That's about it.  It's hard to believe how dreadfully boring PGA golf has become; Tiger or no Tiger in the field.