Courses that would have done well with a new clubhouse location

[John Kavanaugh]

Using the same holes and routing which courses would benefit from a new clubhouse location?  I wish Pacific Dunes was off eight tee where number eight would be one and seven would be eighteen.  I can't believe such a simple solution to an obvious routing problem was missed.

Here is a link to the routing so you can see the genius of my idea.  I see no reason to elaborate on the obvious benefits.  http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/p_course.cfm

The scorecard: http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/p_card.cfm

[Tom Huckaby]

Please bear with us peons and share your genius.

Because I most definitely do fail to see any benefits to your suggested clubhouse move at PD, especially since moving the clubhouse to where you suggest would either mean bulldozing and re-locating #7 green on BD course (a very cool greensite), or otherwise putting it in a hollow, or otherwise some pretty massive earthmoving.

But besides that, I also don't get how that would be an improvement in the routing of the course.  The current 1 and 18 seem to me to at the very least work as well, if not better, than making 8 #1 and 7 #18.

TH

[Tom_Doak]

John:  They are building a new clubhouse for Pacific Dunes right now, in the spot originally intended, which is behind the back tee of #1 and roughly behind #7 green.  With this location you could start on #8, but we didn't like that sequence as well.

If you started on #8, here is the golf course:

Front nine would become 8th, 9th, 10th & 11th (back to back short holes at 3 & 4), 12th, 13th (prettiest hole on the course over at 6), 14th, 15th, 16th is #9.  Then, 17th, 18th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th.

None of our brain trust (myself, Keiser, Urbina, Kemper people) liked it as much because more of the ocean holes would come earlier in the round.  I'm curious why you think it would be obviously better the other way.  The 7th would be a great finishing hole but the 18th does the job, too.

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

It eliminates the boring assemblage of four par threes on the back.  I makes for a much finer finishing hole.  I love the great start with nine becoming number 2.  Number 16 makes for a more exciting finish to the front and the bets that go with it.  4,5,6 and 7 makes for a better overall finish than the current final four holes.  It goes on and on...The genius that is.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

Well, it would appear that the architect himself disagrees with your genius.

And I'm gonna go with him.

But if we want to talk roadbuilding, you'll get my endorsement.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

I am leaving my post above that was typed before I knew Doak would so chime in so it doesn't look like I wussed out...typoes and all.  Sometimes genuis doesn't get it.

[Tom Huckaby]

I am leaving my post above that was typed before I knew Doak would so chime in so it doesn't look like I wussed out...typoes and all.  Sometimes genuis doesn't get it.

Now you can't delete this one either.

But good man.

Sometimes genius doesn't go out of its way to tell the word it is so.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

John:  They are building a new clubhouse for Pacific Dunes right now, in the spot originally intended, which is behind the back tee of #1 and roughly behind #7 green.  With this location you could start on #8, but we didn't like that sequence as well.

If you started on #8, here is the golf course:

Front nine would become 8th, 9th, 10th & 11th (back to back short holes at 3 & 4), 12th, 13th (prettiest hole on the course over at 6), 14th, 15th, 16th is #9.  Then, 17th, 18th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th.

None of our brain trust (myself, Keiser, Urbina, Kemper people) liked it as much because more of the ocean holes would come earlier in the round.  I'm curious why you think it would be obviously better the other way.  The 7th would be a great finishing hole but the 18th does the job, too.

One reason I like my sequence is that I tend to be impressed with the beginning four holes and last four holes overtime more than what is in the middle.  I was thinking that playing the great ninth and then the fun 10th and 11th would be fun start.

I have to rethink what was in this space because it was wrong.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

Do you really see your changes as a net positive?  I see a few positives, but the many negatives listed by Tom Doak.

The start is pretty damn fun as it is, too... I don't see your suggested start being more so.

I also like the end better as is.  16 would indeed be a very fun betting end to the front nine, but heck it's not like 9 as is is bad for that!  

Doak's point re the ocean holes holds a lot of sway with me also.

Anyway it is a good thought, but don't pat yourself on the back too much - I dare say it's been discussed damn near every time I've been there, either before, during or after the round at PD!  Not so much that it would be an improvement, but just more as a curiousity given 7/8 are so close to 1/18.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

If I ever play there again I will probably like the 18th more with a new clubhouse.  I just didn't like the hole my first time around which so happens to have been two years ago to the day.  I wonder if this is a case again where the owner insisted on a finishing par 5.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

I kinda like the "clubhouse" as it was, but then again I really don't care all that much what the clubhouse is so long as I can get a beer and something decent to eat and have a place to sit and enjoy it - all of which the old/current clubhouse did quite well.  I'm a less is more guy when it comes to such things.

So as for how I'd assess the 18th, well... what the hell the clubhouse is or where it is or how it is would be just about the last criterion, assuming it's not affecting the play at all.  And the one at PD surely didn't effect play....

To each his own, again.

I betcha when I go back, I will miss the old clubhouse... and likely be in a minority of one in the opinion.  Oh well.

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

When I finish a great course that I played though much financial and logistic sacrifice I would prefer not to cast a loving look back through plexiglass.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

So that makes you dislike the 18th hole?

Shit man, move your chair so you can look around the plexiglass.  I did.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

JK:

So that makes you dislike the 18th hole?

Shit man, move your chair so you can look around the plexiglass.  I did.

TH

My hate throttle ain't been on turtle since my first love left me.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

Love the thread, disagree with your conlcusion.  The back 9 at PD is all world...just a super finish.  I personally loved 18, and loved all the par 3's on the back.

It seems that the clubhouse will be built not too far away from where you proposed.  Can't wait to get back!!!

[Norbert P]

Regarding the new clubhouse at Pacific Dunes, it will be two stories tall with plenty of big windows above the treetops, so that we will get great views of the course(s). BD, too, I suppose.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have always heard that the Golfweek contingent thinks that the Lookout Mountain clubhouse is poorly placed.  I don't see it, but what is that or other arguments that could be made about courses other than PD.

[Tom Huckaby]

Slag - that doesn't warm my heart - remember what I said about less is more.  Oh well.

JK - other courses?  Hmmmm.... how about courses where the clubhouse is on the ocean or some other big water, taking away what might have been a green or a golf hole?

I can't think of any but some must exist.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Slag - that doesn't warm my heart - remember what I said about less is more.  Oh well.

JK - other courses?  Hmmmm.... how about courses where the clubhouse is on the ocean or some other big water, taking away what might have been a green or a golf hole?

I can't think of any but some must exist.

TH

Huck,

I'm more interested in the impovement of existing courses rather than speculating about such courses as Shoreacres or Spyglass.  Where without touching a blade of playing field grass you could improve a course by moving the clubhouse.  Don't be concerned if you come up blank and allow someone else to get a word in edgewise.

[Kalen Braley]

Huck,

Half Moon Bay - They have that resort right on the cliff edge...

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:  got it.  And fair enough - given your distinction I am drawing blanks.  We'll see if anyone else comes up with anything.  Not sure how Spyglass fits into what I said anyway given the clubhouse is nowhere near the ocean... but no matter.

Kalen - HMB doesn't count, not the way JK is looking at it anyway.  It works for me in terms of a re-do and start over, though...

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

I thought Mucci used to go on and on about how the ground where the clubhouse at Spyglass is built would have been better for golf holes.  It might have been a different course in that area as it was years ago.

[Mike Benham]

Using the same holes and routing which courses would benefit from a new clubhouse location?  I wish Pacific Dunes was off eight tee where number eight would be one and seven would be eighteen.  I can't believe such a simple solution to an obvious routing problem was missed.

The current "clubhouse" is a shack, there is no there there ... but as Mr. Doak implies, there is nothing stopping you from starting on #8 now except the scorecard ...

[CHrisB]

Restoring the old clubhouse location at Banff Springs would change the current 15th back to the 1st and reintroduce one of the great opening tee shots in the game.

[Matthew Hunt]

Restoring the old clubhouse location at Banff Springs would change the current 15th back to the 1st and reintroduce one of the great opening tee shots in the game.

Hear, Hear.