What courses should the PGA play to shake things up?

[J Sadowsky]

Ernie Els once complained that the PGA's rotation of golf courses was boring, that the courses were too similar, rewarding only an aereal game and not allowing for creative shotmaking.  I'm not sure I entirely agree, but there certainly isn't even the difference in courses, week to week, that one would see in NASCAR (go left!!! left!!!) - at least in terms of changing strategy.

So here's my question.  What courses do you think the PGA should make stops at, that:

1) would give PGA players something different

and

2) are viable stops
     - could get sufficient people to attend
     - have the space and infrastructure to hold a PGA event
     - the club/owner would allow the PGA
     - would not run afoul of any PGA restriction (ie their de facto restrictions on all-male and all-white private clubs)

Also, what courses that are already in play, do you think already do this?  I think TPC Sawgrass is certainly something different, although still somewhat of a shotmakers course, and I think Kapalua is also very different.

I guess I'll throw out a few: World Woods (Pine Barrens) (but could they have spectators with all that waste area on the West side of the course?), Cuscowilla (does it have the infrastructure?), and maybe one of the Hamptons courses.

Finally, if the list of alternatives are small, what does that say about American architecture, if anything?

[Jordan Wall]

Honestly, what about Chambers Bay?

[JESII]

It's not the courses that are so similar, it's that they try to prepare each course as similar as possibe week in and week out...why would Ernie play along the ground under anything but the most extreme firmness?

[J Sadowsky]

JES II - what courses that the pros play on do you think should be set up differently?  

And remember, I'm talking about variety here, not just allowing each course to be played as many ways as possible.  What I'm thinking of is to have some courses that favor the aerial game, some courses that favor the ground game, some courses that favor bombers, some courses that favor short and accurate, etc.

Or to put it another way, what PGA courses do you think would change the most by going more F&F? By widening the fairways?  By leaving the greens at a lower stimp? Etc.

[RJ_Daley]

I think they ought to pilot test a few new venues with the Nationwide tour first.  Chambers Bay ought to be put on the agenda immediately, IMHO.

I think Justin answers some of his questions in that there must really be limitted courses and clubs that will meet all those criteria.  I've heard folks on here for years state a few storied old clubs want nothing to do with the whole circus.

[JESII]

That's a good question...I don't know that there is much anyone could do to encourage the Tour guys to bounce a ball into the green when they are in the fairway, I just don't think they would need to...with the exception of the longer par fives.

I like the idea of wider fairways, but I can't name a course that keeps them too narrow...

Here's what I dislike...watching the guys hit a drive that races down the fairway 40 or 50 yards and then seeing their approach shot splat dead on the green as thought they've watered the bejesus out of it...

I'm not coming up with any specific examples, but it seems pretty common.

[Sam Morrow]

What about Austin Golf Club, I would imagine Crenshaw would love to host a Tour event and Austin is a great golf market. I just wonder if the membership wants to give up the golf course for the Tour.

[Tom_Doak]

An interesting question -- most of the courses I thought of first are overseas, which I assume disqualifies them.

I would love to see them try to play Prairie Dunes or Crystal Downs, no matter whether the winning score was high or low.  The same for Seminole.  Yale.  Of the Open courses, Shinnecock and Oakmont and Pinehurst would all make them think even if the rough wasn't a foot high.

If they were going to play one of mine ... Sebonack is the one that's built for it, although it would also be fun to see them try The Rawls Course with the wind howling, or Lost Dunes.

[Dan_Callahan]

Seems to me the best example of a very different course the Tour has played recently is Mirasol. I'm not sure I loved the look of it, but it was so interesting to watch the pros have fits with those wildly contoured greens. That was one of the few events I would watch to see the course rather than because there was someone in the field (Tiger) I wanted to see.

[Jason Topp]

Colorado Golf Club

[J Sadowsky]

An interesting question -- most of the courses I thought of first are overseas, which I assume disqualifies them.

I would love to see them try to play Prairie Dunes or Crystal Downs, no matter whether the winning score was high or low.  The same for Seminole.  Yale.  Of the Open courses, Shinnecock and Oakmont and Pinehurst would all make them think even if the rough wasn't a foot high.

If they were going to play one of mine ... Sebonack is the one that's built for it, although it would also be fun to see them try The Rawls Course with the wind howling, or Lost Dunes.

Of course, if for some reason there was no wind at Rawls, that could end up a nightmare for the red numbers

I was thinking Sebonack when I mentioned the Hamptons, as that would be an interesting challenge.  Pinehurst would also be great, for the recovery shot value.

How did Prairie Dunes hold up against the women and the seniors?  How was the shotmaking?

[John Moore II]

I would like to see PGA events rotate as well, like they are doing with the BMW championship. I especially wish the Greensboro tournament would move away from Forest Oaks. There are many other fine golf courses in the Greensboro area that could hold the tournament. There are also numerous courses in Atlanta that could host the Bellsouth. Atlanta Athletic, Atlanta Country Club, Bear's Best come to mind.
-I would especially like to see some of the high quality municipal clubs be used for tour events. The revenue generated by outside play coming in to play a tour course would more than make up for the loss of one week's revenue.

[mark chalfant]

Oak Tree        great Pete Dye
Kinloch           Lester George
Huntingdon Valley  B and C, or C twice
Wakonda        very good  Langford & Moreau

Dallas National
NCR  !!
Sebonack
Coldstream     Dick  Wilson
Prairie Dunes

[David Ober]

Monterey Peninsula CC

Tobacco Road

[J_ Crisham]

Cantigny in Wheaton is a fine public layout with plenty of acreage to hold the circus like atmosphere of a major. 27 holes to chose from.

[J Sadowsky]

Oak Tree        great Pete Dye
Kinloch           Lester George
Huntingdon Valley  B and C, or C twice
Wakonda        very good  Langford & Moreau

Dallas National
NCR  !!
Sebonack
Coldstream     Dick  Wilson
Prairie Dunes

Totally agree about Kinloch, but not sure Richmond could support a PGA event that wasnt a super.

[J Sadowsky]

An interesting question -- most of the courses I thought of first are overseas, which I assume disqualifies them.

Tom,

1) What does this say about American architecture

2) Did Strantz have it right when he was defending RNK?  He said that it might not have been natural to have an irish course in Williamsburg, but since most casual golfers wouldn't have a regular opportunity to play in Ireland, he thought he should bring some Ireland to him.

Should golf course architects bring something to the area new?  Or is his sole job to create the golf course that already exists under the land, and if thats just another parkland course, so be it?

I live in DC, and I don't think the variety in courses is sufficient.  Raspberry Falls may be a very mediocre Player design, but at least it gets credit for trying something different (note: my access is limited to public courses).

[Bob Jenkins]

Firstly, I agree with Jordan. Chambers Bay would be a great site and I expect the players would love it.

Secondly, as I whined about over a year ago, I fail to see why the north west US should be ignored by the PGA.  The Air Canada Championship drew well for 7 years but had a bad date and a course that was not suitable. Shaughessy had the Canadian Open in 2005. The only other course to hold a PGA event in this part of the world, since the 1960s is Sahalee and that was for the 1998 PGA and the 2002 NEC.

We must be a bunch of lepers up here.  My idea is to have the Cascadia Open rotating between Portland, Seattle / Tacoma and Vancouver each year. That would shake ' em up!

[John Moore II]

Bob-I am not certain why the PGA does not return to the Pacific Northwest, there is certainly money there for sponsorship with Microsoft and Nike being there, along with others I am sure. The Jeld-Wen Tradition is held there though, I know thats Champions Tour, but it is a major. I like the idea of the rotation you say though, I think it would add much needed spice to the tour. But what event would be take off the season?
--David Ober--I would love to see a major tournament at Tobacco Road, or any Strantz course, that would make the players think.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

 I don't think Tobacco would  be a great choice. Its in an awful location for starters. The course is goofy golf, IMO. The tour players would pelt wedges into the crazy hole locations.

I don't feel Tobacco makes the better play think. However it may make the lesser player think. When my buddies and I go out there its bombs away, wedge away, and get the distance right. We played it 3 Saturdays in a row, one guy was 8 under, another 6, 2 and even par. (and were just lowly divison III guys)

In regards to a Hamptons course--The first time I ever saw The Bridge I thought to myself I could see a major tournament being held here.

I would love to see a tour event at Newport CC-- anyone have a number for Marucci or Tiger in 97?

[John Moore II]

Marucci and Tiger played Newport CC in 95 actually, but since you were in maybe 4th grade then, you can have a pass. (I was in 8th)
--As far as The Road, that course can hurt you when they put the pins in the right places. Its harder than you think. That course is set up easy most days because it would take 6 or 7 hours to play if it was playing hard. I would like to see some yardage added to the course where possible, there are a few spots. Bulls Bay or Royal New Kent would work better as far as Strantz courses go though due to location. I have always scored well when I played Tobacco Road, even if I played somewhat bad, but I can't imagine trying to play there if the staff actually set it up tough.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

J. Kenneth Moore-

I'm a senior at Methodist University--we've been playing Tobacco Road 3-8 times a semester since freshman year because they take such good care of us.

With that said- the course isn't very difficult at all, and I bet I've seen it as tough as it gets.  Sure its difficult of you make it goofy golf with crazy hole locations hangin on ridiculous slopes. we could do that to any golf course.

Tobacco Road is all about knowing the yardages, once you get that down its miller time.  

Tobacco may be difficult for a player spraying their driver or of less skill--the better players have a field day.

[John Moore II]

Ahhh...Methodist University, I still can't get over it being called that, more a College I think. I'm not even saying make the pin locations goofy, just make them tough, which they usually aren't, and roll the greens faster, oh, harder too. Next time you play, play #14 from the back tee box, the one that they don't seem to use anymore but still has good grass, see what you think of that one. Oh, BTW, why are hard pin positions goofy?

[M. Shea Sweeney]

J. Kenneth Moore-

They could call it call it Methodist Nursery School for all I care, as long as Jerry Hogge is still the Director of the PGM program, and Steve Conley is the golf coach.

I know the box well, do that for 13 as well, still take if over the trees and have a 9 iron in.

'"I'm not even saying make the pin locations goofy, just make them tough, which they usually aren't, and roll the greens faster, oh, harder too"

Thats the thinkg about Tobacco--in order to make the locations tough you have to make them ridiculous.

Rolling the greens faster would make most of the greens and hole locations unplayable.

Hard hole locations are not goofy--hard hole locations at Tobacco Road are goofy.

[John Moore II]

Sweeney-I only joke about Methodist, had a friend go there, fine place I suppose, passed my PAT there. With hard fast greens the pins would not get goofy, is it too much to ask that a better player be able to hit a wedge in a space of say 250 sqft in order to have a good putt? I think not. Goofy hole locations are only goofy to those that hit poorly executed shots and refuse to admit that they hit poorly executed shots. If you hit the shot to the correct side of the hole, they are not goofy or stupid.