Hudson National (fazio ) par 4s

[mark chalfant]

This Croton NY course was  blasted out of some very severe rocky terrain. Im curious what others think of the par fours(as a group) here. I like #1 and # 7 but I especially like the variety on the back nine. I like the bunkering and angles on  on 10 ,12 and 15. The 17th, 333 yards way uphill , is a nice teaser before the very rugged and difficult 480 yd finisher.  Any opinions on Hudson's  collection of par fours.... ?

thanks

[Bart Bradley]

Mark:

I haven't played Hudson.  Do you have any photos to spur the conversation.

Bart

[Bill Brightly]

Hudson National is a real good course. Superb conditioning, very good green complexes. Some stunning views of the Hudson River valley. Some say their 18th is one of the best finishers in the New York Metro area, but I think the tee shot is a little  "too targety" for my taste: you must hit it dead straight about 275 to reach the green in two. Severe wooded slope left of fairway, CANNOT miss there or it is a double, and deep bunkers on the right, often with no swing.

The construction of many of the bunkers is severe, kind of a razor cut straight down, so sometimes you have no way to get a club on the ball, unless you play away from the hole. I know the Scots are used to this...I know, I am a wimp...but I missed the cut in the Mid Am making triple due to this condition...

[Steve Verde]

They definetely have a really solid collection of par 4's. A good mix of short, mid and long 4's. I believe that the 1st hole is a perfect way to start a round. Many posters state in the other thread about difficult starting holes that they would rather off with a shorter, easier hole but I prefer to start off with a challenging hole that is not penal. It should be a good par but an easy bogey for a good golfer. There should be a lot of room of the 1st tee to miss so that you can easily get near the green in two. Hudson National and Aronimink are two ideal opening holes in my opinion.

Other par 4's that I like at Hudson National are 10 and 15.  I think 15 is the best hole on the course. The tee shot gives a lot of options and the cross bunkers cause deception about yardage into the green. 18 is a very difficult hole and is a good finishing hole for professional calibur players but probably is a bit unfair for the average golfer

[Mike Sweeney]

I think 15 is the best hole on the course. The tee shot gives a lot of options and the cross bunkers cause deception about yardage into the green.

Is 15 the sharp dogleg in the bottom left corner? I like that hole.

I only played it once in an outing with Scott Wood, walking on a very hot day. It did not pass the Mucci test of wanting to go right back to the first tee after 18 as it is rugged property. The clubhouse had beautiful stone work and walking through some of the old ruins on the course between holes was cool. I have to be honest, in a typical Fazio rant, I do not remember too many of the holes, but do remember the greens were very good along with conditionng. I would like to play it again now to "compare and contrast" ( ;)to Tom Paul!) it with nearby Old Dead Guy Sleepy Hollow. Either the land was tougher at Hudson or the old dead guys did a better routing from what I remember.

Perfect outing/one day adventure course with heroic shots, great views, great staff, great food, great conditions, but not a great everyday course IMHO. On Google, elevations range from just under 600 feet to 350 feet.



Here is a course tour:

http://www.hudsonnational.org/club/scripts/ImageAlbum/view_albums.asp?GRP=10026&NS=GP&SRC=&AID=2145&page=1

[Anthony_Nysse]

Is this Fazio's best bunkering? I read something in his book about how they were done differently, more labor intensive, but they have always looked really good, instead on some of his "safe" style bunkers. This actually have randon shapes and look difficult. I'd like to see more.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Adam_Messix]

It is my understanding that Hudson National was a difficult site to work with, including some severe elevation change near the clubhouse.  I enjoyed the course in my two round there 11 years ago and whoever said it was in great condition was correct.  As far as the par fours go, I liked the drive on 3 where a good drive catches a "whoppie zone" for a lot of extra roll.  I also liked 15 because a drive down the right is rewarded with a shorter shot and a better angle in.  17 is an excellent iron/pitch hole with a cool green.  18 is a killer, period, but I liked it as an answer to 17 which can be a swing hole.  

I also liked what they did with the abandoned Hessian Hills CC clubhouse to the left of four.  

The bunkering at Hudson National is different than most of the Fazio portfolio it seems, smaller and less flashy.  It kinda reminds me of Wade Hampton's bunkers.  

I don't know what the guys who have played there think, but this may be the most difficult course in the Fazio portfolio although it is close with Victoria National.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Last I knew, the fairways at HN were walked mowed. If that's any indication of the conditioning level there, I'm sure it's near flawless.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Steve Lapper]

The bunkering at Hudson National is different than most of the Fazio portfolio it seems, smaller and less flashy.  It kinda reminds me of Wade Hampton's bunkers.  

I don't know what the guys who have played there think, but this may be the most difficult course in the Fazio portfolio although it is close with Victoria National.

While I think quite highly of Hudson National and believe it does rank among Fazio's top 5 toughest, I'll take exception to to the belief that the bunkers are "smaller and less flashy." Perhaps the bunkers are smaller than those found at Trump Bedminster or Querencia, but those found at Hudson National are both more numerous and have the dreaded "fingering" style that Fazio finds compelling and I so maddening.

These "fingers" regularly leave a bunker lie that is both impossible to make a recovery shot from and difficult (and expensive) to maintain. The beautiful par 3 16th is a good example. A shot missed into the front left greenside bunker often finds itself pinned up against the lip of a grassy finger, and affords absolutely no even-reasonable chance to recover at, or to, the front of the green..sometimes allowing only for a sideways shot into the left-side rough(not a viable direction, even if measured by the Scottish pot-bunker penalty principle). Further frustration can be had by noticing that the sand areas around these "fingers" are often impossible to adequately maintain and thus face wildly inconsistent conditions within the same bunker. These "fingers" are present in over 9 holes out there, including par 3s,4s and a par 5. I'm all for a hazard remaining a hazard, but this type of bunker design is highly flawed.

[corey miller]

I would vote for the old dead guys doing a better job on the routing though this might have been a seriously difficult job and site which only $$$ and dynamite made quality golf possible.

I think people have hit on most of the positives of the layout.  Doak "6" IMO.  A few criticisms to consider.

1. Fairways, regardless of terrian are all graded like an interstate highway. Totally flat.

2. Still a difficult walk.  4:15 round is probably cruising on this course.  In fact they have a hired hand to ferry golfers up the hill from #2 green to #3 tee.

3. #8 chock full of enviromental restrictions shows the folly of trying to build a par 3 playable from 260 and 140.

4.  The views are real nice but I don't think they were part of the equation in building the course.  Yes the view from the top range is wonderful, but every vista on the golf course is not readily apparent during play.  Kinda like "look over your right shoulder as you walk up #4 fairway".  Or "look left from 10 tee or 18 tee". or "turn around as you walk up 17".  Even when you get to the highest spot on the property (which is out on a point in the hudson) you get routed in the only direction (down #5) without a view.  

Lots of solid holes but nothing partiuclarly noteworthy.

[Adam_Messix]

Steve--

I'm going to take your word on it because it's been 11 years and my impressions may be a bit foggy but HN's bunkering seemed to not be in as large a scale as many Fazio courses that I've seen.  

Corey--
We walked up that hill from #2 to 3 in one of the rounds and it took our breath away.