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K. Potts

Re: Why doesn't Fazio respect GCA?
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2002, 10:09:38 AM »
Jerry K

I know you said you never met Pete, so I bet you were trying to assume the best which is admirable.  But to be quite frank, Pete doesn't give one whit what any critic has to say about his designs and would more than likely tell them to kiss his posterior.  He is a great guy, a great golf guy, but tolerant of critics he isn't.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Why doesn't Fazio respect GCA?
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2002, 10:32:06 AM »
Not long ago I made a point to visit one of the best known courses in America that happened to employ Tom Fazio as consulting architect.  Though no one from the Fazio organization was on site during my visit, I was fortunate to spend quite a bit of time with both the course Superintendent and the Green Chairman and to review work underway preparing for future USGA events.

One thing which stood out about my visit was how well informed my hosts were about Golfclubatlas.com.  Specifically, the Green Chairman was well aware of criticism often aired at GCA regarding the Fazio organization’s recent work at classic courses such as Riviera and Merion.  Moreover, he was aware, in some detail, of my own views about golf course architecture based on my postings at this site.

As we toured the course, my host was quite interested in how I viewed the work underway. He also inquired about my views on specifics suggestions Fazio assistant Tom Marzolf had proposed.  In short, I came away thinking this gentleman very much wanted to do the right things for his course and while he employed Fazio, clearly demonstrated an interest in listening to other points of view, including those expressed at GCA.  Happily, I think his club is on the right track.

To my mind, this says something positive about Golfclubatlas.com.  Tom Fazio may or may not pay much attention to GCA, but clearly the site is emerging as a valuable resource, even for prominent clubs like the one I visited.  One reason for this is that there is simply no other place where candid feedback about golf architecture matters is so readily available.  No other Internet site.  No magazine.  No television program.  No newspaper column.

Golfclubatlas.com, whatever its faults, stands out head and shoulders above.

But, I also know from friends in the golf industry that GCA’s credibility suffers at times.  Part of this comes from the fact that golf course architecture, while being an “art form”, also exists in a world of numerous outside influences, financial considerations and environmental concerns being among the most significant.  Thus, people in the golf industry often feel that lay people at GCA really don’t understand all that goes into building a golf course.

Then, too, GCA suffers at times when people violate what I call the Tom MacWood rule: they fail to articulate what they like or dislike about a golf course.  A classic example is someone who describes a Fazio course as “mailed in”, but never takes the time to detail his views.  It’s a bit like a recent poster who described Crystal Downs as “disappointing” but never followed up – despite being asked several times – to detail his impressions and why he came to the conclusion he did.

Folks like Tom Fazio are also likely to dismiss commentary from people not really familiar with the body of his work.  When a Tommy Naccarato acknowledges never seeing any of Fazio’s work east of the Mississippi, constantly criticizing Fazio makes about as much sense a person criticizing Alister Mackenzie after visiting Sharp Park but never seeing Cypress Point.  

Golfclubatlas.com has established a beachhead and I believe it will grow if we can:

Articulate our views, both positive and negative.  It doesn’t matter whether you like or dislike a particular course, architect or architectural feature.  The key is to explain why.

Avoid personal attacks.  They add absolutely nothing to one’s education in golf architecture and do nothing but discourage greater participation at Golfclubatlas.com.
 
Focus comments on courses themselves, especially if one isn’t really familiar with very much of a particular architect’s work.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Fazio respect GCA?
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2002, 11:01:40 AM »
Tim:
I would be interested to know why the club you mentioned choose Fazio?   Its not that Fazio is well known as a fix it architect?   His style is unique and doesn't (IMHO) really fit in to classical architecture.   If the greens chairman was so aware of critisism of Fazio why hire him?

The reason I ask is that I was just with a vice-chairman of a big company that owns a well known Fazio course.  He told me that they just signed Fazio to build a second course next door.  I asked him a number of times why would they do this and his answer was basically because the general public likes his courses...  

Nobody ever got fired for hiring IBM.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Fazio respect GCA?
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2002, 05:32:29 PM »
Joel:

I think you hit the nail on the head with your quote, "Nobody ever got fired for hiring IBM."

All of the name architects have earned their name for one good reason - they've produced good work, at one point or another.  Most have produced some less than good work, but if your course was designed by Tom Fazio, good OR bad, then at least it's better than a bad course by a no-name architect!
And you can market that name!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tim Weiman

Re: Why doesn't Fazio respect GCA?
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2002, 06:49:59 PM »
Joel Steward:

I am not a member and don't think it would be appropriate for me to comment on why the club hired Tom Fazio.  That's their business and not my place to say.

I was simply trying to point out that the Green Chairman was well aware of some of the concerns raised about Fazio at Golfclubatlas.com.  So, even if Fazio himself doesn't care to follow what goes on here, this one very prominent client certainly does.

That said, I think I can comment about hiring Tom Fazio from the point of view of my home club, Sand Ridge.  Both the club founder (Bill Conway) and the Green Chairman (Dusty Murdock) were quite familiar with Fazio's work and felt he would be the best choice.  Bill and Dusty had confidence in the product he would produce and also felt Fazio would greatly help in the process of selling memberships.  That might not sound exciting from a "golf architecture" point of view, but it is part of the real world of investing and developing a new club.

I might also mention that the Fazio organization receives very strong marks from the grounds crew.  People like John Zimmers and Jim Roney - very talented young superintendents - speak highly of the professionalism of Fazio's people.  

While I'm not among those who care to bash Fazio, I would prefer that he stick to building new courses and stay away from classic courses.  To my mind a place like Prestwick remains as much fun as I could want on a course course, so I can't see the point in modern architects tampering with classic designs.  The exception might be someone like Tom Doak at a Chicago Golf Club.  I'm guessing most people would hardly know Tom was there.  That's ideal, if you ask me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Fazio respect GCA?
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2002, 07:10:53 PM »
Tim:

You hit the nail on the head when you said, "The exception might be someone like Tom Doak at a Chicago Golf Club.  I'm guessing most people would hardly know Tom was there.  That's ideal, if you ask me."  

That is ideal.  And, for the record, Mr. Doak has done a wonderful job thus far at Chicago Golf.  Now, if you can just get rid of some more of the trees on the left-side of #11 as you've suggested ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

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