Why doesn't Fazio respect GCA?

[Joel_Stewart]

First I have to give Tom Fazio credit for responding to the SI article.  Furthermore, he says that the more people who study architecture the better (or something to that effect).

The problem is that he doesn't listen...  Who does Fazio listen to?   He has talked about his respect for the classic architects but his actions (in his golf courses) are far greater than his words.  I'm confused.

[JakaB]

Joel,

Who should Fazio listen too and what should they say...can you name any great artist in any field that would have been well served by listening to their critics.

[BCrosby]

Read his book.  It will tell you everything you need to know about his art, his ego and his view of his predecessors from the Golden Age.

A hint about his ego.  It is the only book I know that claims to be about golf course architecture generally that is illustrated only with holes designed by the author.

There have been several threads on this topic over the last year or so.  You might dig them out.

Bob

[WilliamWang]

jakab - certainly any artist or golf course architect must listen to the patron or corporation etc. funding the work.  i agree, however, that an artist doesn't have to listen to critics and as such fazio shouldn't care a lick what critics think so long as the members/owner who hired him are satisfied.

[john bernhardt]

Any architect who thinks the ideas and thoughts of others are  not worthy of his time will not be well served over time. Fazio build good courses. I was on another major project of his this weekend in north louisiana. They have 38 million in the project. I do not see the money in the product, but that is not the point. I will talk about the course later in detail after one more tour of it. Three of the four par 3's are the same hole. CB mac could have helped him there.

[Bob_Huntley]

JakaB:

LeRoy Nieman?

[John_Conley]

From the businessman's perspective, why should he?

If he doesn't view himself as an artisan, holding him to an artisan's standards will only leave you frustrated.

[SPDB]

Joel

This seems like an absurd conclusion to me. i'll assume by GCA you are referring to GolfClubAtlas.com, and not Golf Course Architecture.  Where in the article does he say he doesn't respect GCA. If I read it correctly, he says that he doesn't listen to GCA's opinion, which for the most part, are critical.

You seem to be suggesting that Fazio doesn't listen to GCA, and why should he? Who are we?  Why on earth should Fazio should listen to GCA?

[Jeff_McDowell]

Joel,

Fazio's quote did not say that more people studying architecture was good, the quote is:

"That lots of people are writing and thinking about ARCHITECTS is good."

I think that quote says all you need to know.

[JakaB]

Bob,

Thats a good one...My wife hates golf art so to speak and she hung a signed Leroy Nieman serigraph of the 18th of Pebble directly across from our toilet.   If I could only get the matching Kincaid I could be regular in at least one aspect of my life.   All seriousness aside I dislike all things Nieman and like all things Warhol when in fact they may be very much alike when in some odd coincidence I think if either were my friends my feelings would most likely be in reverse.

[Dunlop_White]

In March, I attended a forum with Golfweek. Fazio was the guest speaker. At that time, Fazio claimed that he had never heard of Golfclubatlas and never visited the site. He said this before Ran's parents, but not distastefully, just not really interested. Brad Klein responded by saying that "(he) should be interested." The following constitutes my interpretation of the evening with Fazio:

Fazio's presentation centered around Fazio himself,  not so much about his architecture and design practices. I expected to learn a little about his tendency to vertically shape fairways to acheive a dished-out sort of look. Instead he denied having any real tendencies at all.

He has a large family who means a great deal to him. He does not to spend more than twenty (20) evenings a year away from his family. He therefore will entertain only one west coast job every couple of years. All his children are now in college or older, one of which works for him. He pays his many employees well.

He revealed a couple of inconsistencies.

On the one hand, he once again reiterated that he did not study the classic architects, yet on the other hand he said that he enjoys analyzing the "routings" of many of the great old courses. [He believes routing is crucial, and has one hundred percent control over the routing of his designs. He said that he will never tire of the creative aspects of routing a plot of land, even if it is a parking lot] Nevertheless, Fazio claims that Mackenzie erred in finishing Cypress away from the ocean with its anti-climatic par 4. He said he would have routed Pebble Beach so that the middle holes would run from left to right with the ocean along the left. This configuration would be more demanding for the great golfer and not as penal for the mid-handicapper. He admitted that Pine Valley is the only course he does not think he can improve. Thus, he must study the routing of the classics.

Secondly, Fazio was questioned whether he utilized a player for "shot values" when designing a course, just as MacKenzie designed Augusta based upon the shots of Bobby Jones? Fazio denied ever using such a player for assistance; however, later he described how he asked a kid, who was ultra-long, to bomb drives on hole 18 at Augusta to get an accurate read as to where he needed to extend the tee and/or move the bunkers.  

I got the feeling that Fazio actually does study the classic architects and their practices, but simply will not acknowledge such. Perhaps its his ego, I don't know? (He could very well be tuning us in periodically for all we know. I just learned that Silva does.)

Although Fazio has 18 courses in Golfweek's Top 100 Modern, Fazio claims that he knows of at least 30 other courses which he has designed that are better than the 18 on the list.  

He further claimed that some of his clients are too hung up on the adage that a "great golf course requires you to use all the clubs in your bag". A Merion member hired Fazio to design a course for him. This client was too concerned that this course would not be 'great' because it lacked length variety. Fazio claimed that he asked his client whether he thought Merion was a great course. He affirmed emphatically. Then, he asked this client how many eight irons he typically hit on the approaches at Merion. Knowing the answer would be a half dozen or so, Fazio said, the client got his point!

The Shadow Creek story was fascinating!

In the end, although I do not often agree with Fazio, I do not fault him for what he has become in the design business either. There is big money out there, and evidently he has the name and the product that people want. I like his designs while I'm playing them, I just don't remember them after I leave. I just don't think he should be hired to restore or alter classic courses. But remember, that is not his fault that memberships are running for his services. They certainly know what they are NOT going to get!

[rhobbs]

I always cringed when I read that Mike Keiser was considering Fazio for a course out at Bandon.  He just has no imagination.  And, that crap about framing a hole.  A golf course in my opinion is supposed to flow.  It is not about each hole it is about the entire course.  Can you ever imagine Fazio doing a course like Shinnecock or Maidstone or countless others.  

He is almost like McDonalds.  No matter where you go they are all the same.  I was trying to explain to my co-workers why Fazio is disliked on this website.  The best way I can explain it is this:

I compare Fazio to John Grisham.  He is a huge success but his work will never be compared to Keats, Salinger, or Hemingway.  These authors' work inspired and moved people.  Grisham dissappears from memory as soon as you finish the book.

[JakaB]

Come on rhobbs...Fazio is nothing like Mcdonalds maybe Mortons on a bad day...I hope these are the same coworkers you tell all Chicago golf looks the same and you wish not to waste your time on it...really you do need to back up your statements on how all his courses look the same...which have you played if any.

[rhobbs]

Barefoot
Shadow Creek
Mirabel
Estancia
Pablo Creek
Jupiter Hills
World Woods
Pinehurst #4
Short Course Pine Valley

Pinehurst #4 was absolutely the worst.  Talk about ripping off Pine Valley and Augusta.  I mean how hard is it to be creative with an amazing track as that.

[guest]

Forget this web site, what does he think of the work and ideas of Ben, Bill, Tom and the others? Has he been to and played Pac Dunes and/or Sand Hills?

[SPDB1]

Rhobbs-
weren't you the same person who after looking at a pic of Red Sky Ranch, commented that "you liked what you were seeing." I would think given your predisposition to disliking fazio, that you wouldn't have such an impression.

[Jerry Kluger]

I think what would have been much more interesting to us would be what Pete Dye thinks of GCA as I believe that many of us are very complimentary of a number of his courses including the Ocean Course at Kiawah and Harbourtowne.  Fazio doesn't need us nor does Tom Clancy, LeRoy Neiman or Mick Jagger.  We shouldn't be concerned with what Fazio thinks of us rather we should feel some satisfaction that SI would even write about GCA and feel that asking Fazio about GCA is a necessary part of the story.  Incidentally I know LeRoy Neiman fairly well and I believe that he considers himself a well schooled artist from the Chicago Art Institute and does not take himself or his art too seriously.  He enjoys doing his work and takes satisfaction in knowing that people enjoy his work and he has sustained his popularity for nearly 50 years.  Perhaps we all take ourselves a little too seriously at times and we should give recognition to what we think is well done without bashing what we think is not.  

[rhobbs]

I stated earlier:
"Now not being a big Fazio fan, I must say that I really like what I am seeing out at Red Sky Ranch."

What I was talking about on Red Sky was how beutiful the surrounding was.  I wasn't making any reference to the quality of the work being done.  

But, I am getting a lot of negative comments lately so it is probably best if I keep my comments to myself.  

[JakaB]

rhobbs,

I get a kick out of everything you say and hope you don't stop...for the most part you are so obviously wrong I begin to think perhaps you are a master of satire...keep up the good work.  This place is just another magazine without disagreements.

[George Pazin]

rhobbs -

Don't let Barney & Sean shout you down!  

I like the Grisham analogy, though I haven't played enough Fazio to say if it holds up. I will say I've read just enough Grisham to conclude he's the only author I've ever come across whose movies are better than his books.  

[Slag_Bandoon]

 I preface with... I have never played a Fazio course, nor have I met him.  (I hear hackles rising out there)  I have gleaned his thoughts from his book (I ain't paying for it) and gathered that he just doesn't appreciate the randomness of earth.  I don't think of him as an artist sculpting with groovy medium, I think of him as a constructor with limited artistic and philosophical ventures of the mind.   With this latest statement about not caring what people think, that means he's set and content with his results and doesn't need to learn any more.  He's building a course in central Oregon soon, alongside Jack Nicklaus -  Pronghorn.  Perhaps I'll get a chance to be proved wrong.  
  I'd like to play golf with him.

Peter Keating or Howard Roark or a blend?  Peter went for the fame and money - Howard didn't give a hoot what anybody thought of his work.  

[rhobbs]

The people have spoken.  Hobbs is going to stay in the game.  Who knows one of these days I might knock one into the lights and astound eveyone.  

[George Pazin]

Slag -

Peter straight up. Not even a question.

The strongest sign of a healthy ego is the ability to accept criticism - not necessarily follow it or even agree with it, but at least acknowledge & dismiss it if you disagree, preferrably by clearly arguing your position. Also, the best minds always are inquiring & learning from everyone & everything & aren't afraid to admit it, in fact usually relish it.

I haven't reread The Fountainhead in recent years, but I don't remember Howard being unwilling to discuss his ideas & building - indeed, I think he genuinely enjoyed a battle of wits where the other side wasn't completely disarmed.

[Andy Hodson]

Slag

Great question...Keating or Roark. I was going to immediately respond Keating, but upon further thought remembered Roark designed without a care for the classics. Right? I also haven't picked up Fountainhead in a few years. Keating was the classicist, wasn't he? Roark the imaginative soloist dead solid in his beliefs, not willing to sell out.

Where on the Keating-Roark scale do each of us fall in the context of golf course architecture?  Maybe not as easy an answer as we would think......

[Jeff_Brauer]

I agree with SPBD - why should Fazio listen to GCA?  He has designed a gazillion good courses (at least by most peoples standards) and knows that anyone as successful as he will develop some critics.  

As for studying classic architects, I'm sure he has.  Although some here portray him as an uncaring business machine, with no real soul for architecture, I can tell you that is not the case, both from knowing him, and playing his courses.  

I played his Barton Creek Foothills last weekend in Austin, as well as Disney and a slew of others, I can tell you that I am always plesantly surprised at how many chances he takes, and how he uses the site to create some unique holes.  

The one I remember well at Barton Creek is the 8th - a sub 500 yard par 5 that requires perfect placement of the tee shot  between a rock bluff and a stream to even go for the shorty in two.  At Disney, I recall 11 - a par five but with some stacked bunkers similar to 10 at Riviera that fool you into driving right or left, often with disasterous results.  At Flint Hills, it was reverse slope greens.  

In short, I don't know how many of you have played enough Fazio courses to really know that that they are "all the same" but if I were him, I would be shaking my head saying, "But what about all those holes I design along classic principles?"  

Lets face it.  Some of the critique of modern architects - especially the really successful ones, who aren't unsung up and coming gems - here is based on nostalgia for the classics, to be kind, and not totally on facts!  

As far as saying he reveres the classics, I noticed that in the 80's, when most architects were doing modern mounding, Fazio was one of the first to go back to low profile greens, highly contoured, and with very classical lines, to buck the trend, with a few modern twists.  I think his work reflects the classics better than his words.  

I can tell you from experience that the idea of going to potential clients and saying you are copying old ideas versus telling them you are doing something original, new and fresh doesn't sell.  I think that would be most true of the signature designers.  Since Fazio is really selling all the time (as we all are) he has probably developed a consisten theme to his presentations to convey a consistent "brand image".  

At the same time, being good in business and marketing only means you get better chances to display your craft.  It doesn't mean you don't enjoy the work of creating the best golf course you can, and Tom enjoys creating the best course he can.  It's just that his idea and some of yours vary a little.  It may mean that you get a chance to devlop firm ideas, and that may lead to some repetition of concepts, adapted to each individual site.  Is that different than some here, who might insist we repeat classic design concepts endlessly because we are sure we can come up with anything better with a new idea?

In any case, if you are Tom Fazio, there is no benefit to comparing yourself to other architects, living or dead, or giving serious credibility to a small percentage of your biggest critics, who in their lifetime will have the chance to build a grand total of zero (well, maybe one) golf course to test your individual theories.  If I was Tom Fazio, a bit of criticism on the internet (another factor the old guys didn't have to put up with ) would not bother me in the least or cause me to drastically change the direction of my career.