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The greens at PV have plenty of contour. They may not be wild like say the 6th at NGLA but they are far from flat have complicated, substantive, borrows and take some putting:You can even see the breaks on these rather small pics of 4th and 16th:The back of the 16th which has the steep slope, NEVER has a hole cut into it. It's more of a backstop than a putting surface with a hole location.[/color]16thDon't be fooled by the area fronting the green.# 4 green has very little in the way of contour.Essentially, it's a front to back sloped green, with little in the way of internal contour.[/color]4thMost of the holes at PVGC have 100-150 yards of sandy waste carry from the forward tees to the fairway.From elevated or highly elevated tees, making the carries play shorter.I don't consider a 100 yard carry, a 125 yard carry or a 150 yard carry from an elevated tee or a highly elevated tee a substantive carry. Do you ?[/color]