Revolutionary or retro/original architecture?

[TEPaul]

Fellows, there's something that's basically indescribable architecture under construction at this moment--the 17th at Hanse & Co's new French Creek!

It's Bill Kittleman's new pet project hole that he's calling the "abrutement"!

If there's any particularly "known best way" to play this hole I can't imagine that anyone knows what it is--probably including Bill Kittleman himself!

It's definitely of a length it should be perceived as a par 3 but I wouldn't count on it.

Thank God someone had the guts to do a hole like this today! This one is definitely outside the box and at 235 from the tips, uphill and into the prevailing wind it's probably going to be some kind of par skewing enigma.

I've never quite known what to make of Bill Kittleman's architectural ideas until today! This hole and its features looks to me like an amalgamation of everything that golf architecture is--both man and nature and what happens on it with golfers may very well be taking golf and it's architecture back to its near original essence!

The interesting news is whatever happens to your tee ball--either good or bad may not be able to be seen from the tee anyway!

If it stays in it present form, it will be super controversial, but from what I can see I'd probably say Bill Kittleman is a retro-revolutionay genius.

What I'd definitely say is he has architectural guts--Thank God!

[TEPaul]

Oh, and one other thing that adds to the mystery--there appears to be a completely rectangular back tee box taking shape that's almost at a 45 degree angle to the correct line of play!! Matter of fact, the shape of the tee box aims the golfer directly at the "abrutement"!

Bill Kittleman, I have no idea whether that tee box is poking fun at man or man-made architecture but I think I do know it's not making fun of nature. If I have to aim myself towards my target on my own inside a 45 degree misaligned rectangular tee box that'll be just fine with me!

[Pete_Pittock]

TE,
    What's happening up by the green? Its a blind hole, par 4 for me no matter whats on the card, will it get harder with familiarity for those who have the length to get there. Will there be a good layup spot. Sounds a bit like E16 at Carnoustie except for more elevation change. I don't know why I'm asking, since mostly likely will never play it.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom,  could you tell us more.  I imagine Kittleman has a reason for the amalgamated word "abrutement".  What elements of construction might those words describe in relation to his hole design?  Abuttment, revettment, brutal?  Is this a forced carry going up the hill?  Where have they placed the mid and high handicappers tees?  What sort of clubs does he expect various players to use if into a prevailing wind direction; driver, fairway woods, long irons?  Any run up apron?  How big and what sort of cant or internal contours does the green have?  Curious minds want to know  

[TEPaul]

Pete Pitcock:

Will it be harder at first blush or with experience?

I only feel safe in saying; "Who knows?"

[TEPaul]

RJ:

At 235 from the tips all I can say is the enormous bunker across the hole that may be out off the back tee at no more than about 150-170yds and might blind out most of the rest of the hole is not particularly penal. Beyond it is a runup fairway that's two tiered and inline! Which inline fairway would be the best one to play--upper or lower, I have no idea!

The enormous bunker across the hole, blinding most of what's beyond it I heard today they're calling "the wave" for lack of a better description at the moment!

Maybe Hanse & Co is on a creative "no holds barred high" from Rustic Canyon!

I recall that Shackelford, the Rustic co-designer, said some player came up to him and said, almost embarrassedly, that Rustic was not that terribly hard to play but it was just so much fun! Shackelford could only say; "What else did you expect?"

Also, the bunkering that's getting made at this moment at both French Creek by Hanse & Co and also at Stonewall2 by Renaissance Design directly across the street is some of the best natural looking bunkering I've ever seen!

[RJ_Daley]

"What else did you expect?"

[Andy Hodson]

Tom

Are you saying you think this is a good hole? Or that you like the hole because it show guts on the archies' part?

I guess my question is: If there were many holes just like it across the country would it still be a good hole, or do you like it because of the fact it is unusual?

[Joel_Stewart]

To answer your question it sounds retro/original.  It sounds like the 13th a Sand Hills (216 yards, up a fairly steep hill) except the bunker at Sand Hills is on the left side of the green.  
Anyway its a frigin hard hole and only the best of tee shots make it on the green.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

That's it.  I'm calling Eric and getting over there next week!  

If YOU can't describe the hole, this is something I've gotta see for myself!  

[TEPaul]

Hod:

It looks like it will be a very interesting hole to play--probably quite difficult to make a 3 on. I'm sure it'll be very controversial too--this is just the kind of hole that Americans generally will be highly confused by--calling it too blind, no definite way to play the hole that's clear, too unusual--etc, etc! Basically many of the things I like for originality and fun. This hole probably will have a great sense of humor.

If I wasn't certain this hole is in America and Kittleman built it I might have thought it was in Southern England and the spot the Saxons dug in to take on the Normans and they had one helluva bloody battle on this 235yd stretch of ground!

You asked; "If there were holes like this across the country....?

I don't really need to consider that because I know there won't be! As to other architects doing holes like this it sort of falls into the category of what Lanny Wadkins sometimes said looking at his fellow competitors from the booth; "They ain't got the guuuts!!"

[Andy Hodson]

Tom

Great explanation. Sounds like a great match play hole, and maybe that is why some players won't like it. It may screw up their scorecard--the one thing that gives them their golfing identity.

And it doesn't seem like it fits the perception of what a par 3 should be (in the general golfing public's eye). Glad to hear about it.

[Eric Pevoto]

Tom,

Very funny!  This thread has gotten some discussion around here today.  It was good to meet Yancey and I'm glad you guys got out to see see the place.  Too bad Bill wasn't around so he could accept the accolades in person.  Retro-revolutionary genius?  Oh yeah!  

You've got to credit Gil, Jim, and Rodney, Bill and the rest of the crew.  It'd be great to hear what they have to say about the hole.  

I'm interested to see how people react to the lack of direction at the tee.  How great is that back tee pointed due right?  Not a hole that makes you feel too cozy.  I usually laugh when I'm out there.

I've photographed the hole, but not suprisingly, it doesn't come across very well.  Hopefully, sometime soon I'll be able to post them anyway.  

Mike,  you're more than welcome to come out whenever, just give me a shout (that goes for the rest of the GCA bunch too)  

[TEPaul]

#17 French Creek is probably worth a good deal of analysis and discussion on this site as time goes by and as it comes into maturity from the perspective of presentation, playability and design and players' reaction to it.

From the look of it yesterday it seems to be ready to go and to get grassed (but I can't be sure that BillK and Hanse & Co. have stopped working with it at this point).

I saw it about a month ago well past the roughed in stage but yesterday plenty of additional detail had been added.

First of all the enormous bunker across most of the hole that Eric Peveto said they're now calling "the wave" is unusual in and of itself for a new construction American hole!

Since there's no flag in the green it's hard to tell at this point how much blindness that enormous bunker does create but I would say it might be hard to see the green surface itself (but it may be possible to see the flag) and certainly the  fairway run-up to the green which is a good deal of the interest and mystery of the hole will not be visible from the tees.

I have no idea why an inline two tiered run-up fairway was used but it's clear it will have a very differing effect on the ball depending on which inline fairway runup the ball lands on. If it lands on the right lower one it may not make it to the green because of the upslope at the green front on the lower right runup. But on the left higher tier runup it looks like the ball would filter easily onto the green.

Of course from the tee there isn't much visual reference to a target anyway and certainly none as to where these inline tier fairway runups are so I can see plenty of golfers hitting what they think might be a great shot only to come around "the wave" to see the ball didn't do what they thought it should have. And vice versa--there may be some shots a golfer would think were wrong and come around "the wave" to find the ball's fine.

This kind of thing is probably exactly what makes much of the European style and older American courses so much fun and so interesting but which also makes so many Americans upset since they seem to want to rely on total visibility and total directional referencing!

But the basic unusualness of the hole is the app. 200 yd long "earthen wall" (the abruptment) that runs along the entire right side of the hole! The abruptment has some bunkering at it's base and maybe a random one in it at one point. It now also has a rather large squarish indentation in it!! What are you all calling that indentation, Eric? Was it the "garage"?

The abruptment also has a shorter tee box on top of it! But the back rectangular tee box aligned at a 45 degree angle to the line of play just completes the whole unusual affair.

I'm glad the tee box is so radically out of alignment because if anyone failed to understand that Bill Kittleman and Hanse & Co obviously had fun creating this hole that tee box alone should disabuse them of failing to understand that!

In my opinion the playabiltiy of this hole will be one that should be a bit of a hard par but a very easy bogie for all but a very poor shot (one that might go into "the wave", for instance).

The point is a lot of players are going to hit what they might think was a great tee shot (and they won't be seeing it land) and find themselves making that easy bogie.

That's the exact prescription for driving players crazy!! It's also a great application of the unpredictability of golf and I'm certain that fact is not in the slightest lost on Kittleman and Hanse & Co.! Golfers should learn to have a sense of humor about the game and its architecture even if it does cost them a shot every now and then! They should remember that same unpredicatability can save them one too occassionally!

I love it!!

[archie]

Eddie Carman/Running Deer

He revolutionizes the word retro!!!!!

[Paul_Turner]

If I wasn't certain this hole is in America and Kittleman built it I might have thought it was in Southern England and the spot the Saxons dug in to take on the Normans and they had one helluva bloody battle on this 235yd stretch of ground!

Yes, I have the image, just like Painswick and its fort and battlements!  (and those Normans were the start of all our strife!)

Tom, by "inline tier" you mean a left-right or right-left tier as you approach the hole?  

If so, Southerndown's 18th in Wales is a fine "natural" example; there's a small photo in Doak's Confidential Guide at the back.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Once past "the Wave" bunker a fairly generous run-up fairway area starts on this par 3 and may extend 40 or so yards to the green front. This fairway runup area is divided in half by a lower right section and higher left section. It appears since the right section is about a foot lower that it upslopes as it reaches green front. Left fairway section seems to meld right into the left green front.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Eric,
Will French Creek be taking tee times for singles to appease certain midwesterners who will want to come and visit the course?

Moving on, here are the pictures I promised Eric I would post some time ago, and totally forgot to. So forgive me Eric, and send me some more!

By the looks of this shaping, it makes me want to go out a buy a surf board--KAWABUNGA! (I'm hoping Gil reprizes the Maiden.)



Some views of #15

The tee shot

The lower fairway.

The upper fairway.

[TEPaul]

Eric:

You need to get out there and take some more photos of #17. One from the tee taking in the entire "abruptment" would be nice and while you're back there see if you can get one of the alignment of that tee box.

I'd say Hanse & Co is leading in architeture today in creating some interesting and fun quirk in design--it's not gimmicky either, in my opinion, just some natural looking and subtle humour. It's interesting, it looks natural (or done by somebody or something that wasn't golf related). Muirhead was very innovative too but his psychologic symbolism had to be acid induced! Recreate the look of the Norse battlefield if you wish but not a symbolic Norse sword bunker that's 100yds long!

Of course that can hardly be true in any case of a tee box (Kittleman's nonaligned #17)! But whose going to know a year from now that Kittleman conceived of the entire "abruptment"? Few will know that! And I'm going to do my part and tell anybody and everybody I can prove that the Saxons came over here to Elverson Pa for some miliary training exercises before they went back home and took on the Normans!

I have no knowledge of the evolution of the reconfigured (rerouted) 10th hole at French Creek either but I do remember that the wonderful Pa "bank barn" was scheduled to be torn down. Now Gil has that barn as part of the feel and concept of #10 so the barn has to stay. That's good stuff, thoughtful and creative (and a real positive if it saved that barn) and that kind of thing should be menitioned on here.

Bill Kittleman, we've got to go back out for dinner so I can find out what other ideas and concepts you might have in mind! I'd like to start by discussing the idea you consider the most far out! Are you familiar with the decision where you can open the barn door and hit a shot through the barn? Would you consider an alternate tee to the left on the new #10 for that possibility to the 10th green?

[Eric Pevoto]

Thanks again "Tony" for posting the pictures.   I'll be sending more along.  

Tom Paul,  I'd like to get some shots from the tee with better light.   The basement, as in walk-out basement, was thrown around for that little cave like thing (actually just short of the revetted sod stuff in the second shot).  

You're onto something though with regards to humor in architecture.  Why does the typical American golfer seem to take their golf and architecture so seriously?  I don't mean in terms of devotion, I mean a lack of ability to laugh at oneself and what happens on the golf course.  No one loves the golf and its playing fields more than I do, but come on, it is a friggin' game.

By the way, the beautiful bank barn at the entrance was staying no matter.  The hole was actually rerouted and changed from the 15th to the 10th in the sequence.  This brought the barn "into play," so to speak.

[TEPaul]

Eric:

Watch to see the reaction of Shackelford when he sees that second paragraph of yours! Humor in architecture or the potential for it is right up there on his priority list of importance. Maybe not quite at the level of really good temptation--but close!

[Mike_Cirba]

Eric;

After seeing those pictures, I have to warn you.  Once you get me onto that property, you might not get me off!!

Can anyone seriously claim that there isn't a HUGE difference in architects/contractors who construct bunkers out there working today??

Just contrast these pictures, as well as the ones of Hidden Creek and Rustic Canyon on this site, with some other, much less fortunate ones that have been posted in recent days.  

Of all the words of mice and men....oh..how sad about what might have been....