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Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2009, 12:29:10 AM »
Tom,

I don't think the people at Toledo CC and White Bear YC will agree with your assessment that Willie Watson designed their courses any more than MCC will agree with you that Barker designed theirs.  That is just based on my limited contacts at each club.

Just what evidence do you have that Watson designed those, rather than those credited with the designs?  Some more train schedules?

Are channeling TEP?

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2009, 12:35:30 AM »
 8) Toledo CC very proud of Willie Park Jr legacy there!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2009, 01:01:52 AM »
TMac,

I haven't spoken to TePaul this week and not at all about this or the MCC threads.

As you know, I was in Toledo last week, and my cousin is a good friend of Don Kotnick (?) the pro there.  I have played there and spoken with Don and some members.  As Steve says, they are very proudof their Park heritage.  So, with my second hand connection there, I wonder what your evidence is to "correct" the historic record there?  I know something about White Bear YC, too and no one mentions Watson.

Its a legitimate question, which deserves an answer other than one of your deflection questions, which only say to me you have no real answer.  You know, if you offered whatever newspaper clip you have (and as you always demand, in its entirety) I would simply be interested in seeing it.

As I told you in private email, I think your digging and finding skills are much more evolved and valuble than your interpretive skills.  It seems to me that your theories always rely on a lot of fantastic coincidences to be true, while I believe that the simplest explanation usually is the most correct.

Plus, IMHO only, I am beginning to think that you have a deep seated agenda to promote lesser know gca's over the famous ones in an almost pathological way.  At least, this newest Willie Watson twist, appears that way to me.  First Barker, now Watson?  As always, I could be wrong and if proven so, will certainly apologize to you publicly.  Who knows....if you claim enough false attributions, eventually you will probably be right on one of them........Yeah, that's harsh, but there is no question that I am just a bit tired of your theories now after numerous MCC posts and private emails asking inane questions like "Are you channeling TePaul?"

I simply would like to see what your evidence is because in this day and age, statements on the net like "Willie Watson designed many courses attributed to other more famous gca's" have some real staying power.  Who knows who might Google that some day, and pick up only that statement, leading future historians on some MacWoodian Goose Chase in the wrong direction?  It raises an interesting question (again) of what level of background info should be required to make such posts on the internet?  Certainly, a newspaper or mainstream media outlet wouldn't publish that kind of thing (or the DM essay) without some serious vetting.

Is it too much to ask that you give us some background info on your opinions?  Thanks in advance.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2009, 09:18:41 AM »
8) ok.. Road trip..  who wants to join ms sheila and I at Belvedere and even Dunmaglas at end of July?  should be good berry picking by then

JC Jones, we have cabin at Blue Lake about 45 minutes south.. expect an email after 25 july..

Sounds good Steve, I'm up here until Aug 3.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2009, 09:24:37 AM »
Mark
He is not fully appreciated. Watson designed many more courses than what is generally known. I've identified 45 designs in California, Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Colorado, Arizona and New York, including some high profile courses credited to others, like Thousand Island (Raynor), Toledo (Park) and White Bear Yacht (Ross). There is still quite bit of Watson at Interlachen, and he designed Minikahda. He was heavily involved in two of the courses at Olympia Fields. Olympic-Ocean may have been his greatest accomplishment, but unfortunately it fell into the sea.

He is unique in that he was not home-grown professional in Scotland, nor even a good amateur. I'm still trying to figure out how he became a pro, I think his father was involved in clubmaking, and they came over together. To my knowledge he never competed in tournament. His design career stretched from 1898 to 1928, and that covers some pretty dramatic changes.

That is the first I've read of him being associated with the Chicago GC.

The Chicago Club he was associated with is the Chicago Club in Charlevoix, MI (a summer neighborhood association similar to the Belvedere Club).

Where are you finding this good information on Willie Watson?  I'd love to try and piece together a bio of this guy as I think he has enough (prominent) work out there to have a legitimate biography.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2009, 10:15:40 AM »
JC
I've found good info in American Golfer, Golf Illustrated, Chicago Tribune and The Scotsman, but the best sources have been the LA Times and The Golfer magazine, which was a magazine based in Chicago.

I'll be posting some images once I figure out how to do it.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2009, 11:05:13 AM »
I am posting these for Tom MacWood....

Tom, send me an IM if you want me to call you and run you through the process of posting pictures...it is really not that hard  ;D.






He will have to make his own comments.

Bart

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2009, 11:27:01 AM »
Both the article and the advertisement come from The Golfer Magazine. The advert was May 1913 and the article May 1925.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2009, 11:50:10 AM »
Tom,

I'm very confused.   Does this mean that Wilie Watson laid out White Bear "on the ground" and was merely the construction supervisor for the project?  ;)

Who knew he was also the construction supervisor at Interlachen?  

Who actually designed it?  ;)

Seriously, I really do appreciate your research and new findings.   I don't think you truly believe in the torturing of the English language any more than I do.  

Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 11:55:12 AM by MCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2009, 11:52:03 AM »
Tom,

Well that is interesting.

Here is what the Ross Society has to say about Ross and Watson in MSP....

From the WBYC section:

We have no evidence that Mr. Ross visited the site of the White Bear Yacht Club in 1912 or 1915 when he designed first the front nine (1912) and later the back nine (1915). It is thought that this course was designed from topographical maps that were submitted to Mr. Ross. The drawings for the course were lost in a fire in 1938, leaving scant written evidence of the work of the Master.

The course is all the evidence that one would need to confirm that White Bear is a work of Donald Ross.

And from the Minikahda  section:

In 1898, William Watson left Scotland to join with Robert Foulis in building nine holes at the Minikahda Country Club in Minneapolis. The new nine complimented nine that had been built by Robert Taylor and C.T. Jaffray, two amateur Architects. .....The combination must have been reasonably successful as the USGA chose Minkahda Country Club to be the site of the 1916 US Open. Chick Evans won the 1916 with great aplomb. Carrying only seven wooden-shafted clubs Evans soared to a 2 under par total of 286 to take the crown.

Members of the Club must have been worried that their course was obsolete in the face of the power and finesse of the Championship players of the day. After all, Evans set a record for the lowest score in the Open, a score that they did not know would remain a record for 20 years and Evans, the great ball-striker, was the worst putter of his day.

The members called in Donald Ross who redesigned the Minikahda Club in 1917.




I know that Ross also did Northland as a redo of an existing course.  Is it quite possible that Watson did the original layout work and that Ross blew it up and started nearly over, given the dates from the Ross Society?  I will say that in the case of WBYC, even Ross guys say there is no evidence he was there, but Brad Klein did confirm that Ross made it to Northland. It would seem he might stop by.

I know I could look this up, but what years if you know, were the prime of Watson's career?

Mike C,

No need to carry that over here!  While I agree that the term layout seems to have been used many different ways to describe design, too, lets try to keep this one civil, my earlier comments to Tom Mac notwithstanding.  He is good at digging these things up. 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 11:54:15 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2009, 11:56:50 AM »
Jeff,

Agreed.   I very much appreciate Tom MacWood's research, as well.  ;D

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2009, 11:58:08 AM »
And, from theToledo Country Club web page:

"The Toledo Country Club is one of the oldest and finest Country Clubs in the Midwest, established in 1897 with the purchase of approximately thirty acres of land along the Maumee River. A nine-hole golf course was constructed almost immediately while today’s Clubhouse was completed by 1901. The course was originally designed by British Open Champion Willie Park Jr. and was later redesigned by Arthur Hills. "

What dates did Watson and Park work?  Did Park redo and then expand the 9 holes?

Just asking. Like Tom, I do find all this history interesting.  And it appears that architectural attributions just weren't considered quite as important to make in those days.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2009, 12:10:11 PM »
Interesting. Advertisements as evidence. With that standard we would all be smoking for the health benefits.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2009, 02:28:37 PM »
The current 18 at Toledo was built in 1911. Willie Park, Jr moved permanently to the US in 1916 (after a couple visits in the mid-90s). When I pointed this out to the club they had little interest. I knew it wasn't Park in 1911, but Watson was not someone I suspected. Willie Park did redesign the course later, and listed it, my guess that was around 1919 around the time he built Sylvania.  

Ross did not include White Bear Yacht as a course he designed or redesigned on his master list of 1930. White Bear YC had no direct evidence Ross was involved. The Tufts Archives had nothing on White Bear either, no articles and no plans. Watson was the preeminent man in Minnesota at the time, which is why I suspected it was more likely he was responsible for the course and mentioned it a few times in the past (prior to finding the article)

Watson was very active in the 1910s and 1920s, and fairly active in the 1900s. A couple of interesting tidbits from the LA Times...by the way I did not include either Lakeside or Riviera in the 45 courses:

"George Eastman, LA McCray and Harry Facuett have joined with JB Irsfield, FK Callaway, RG Bury, GC Greenwood and Charles Christie in the directorship of the newly organized Lakeside Golf Club which recently purchased 125 acres of beautiful rolling land including 500 feet of lake frontage on Toluca Lake, from Hoffron-McCray-St.John subdividers for a consideration of $400,000. The organization's plan of the new club is unique in that its membership will consist of 650 members, 600 of which will be participating members and will own and control the club's property and assets. The remaining fifty will be life members. It is said that the work is to start immediately and $150,000 is to be expended for laying out the course. Another $100,000 will be spent in building a modern clubhouse near Toluca Lake which will have all modern conveniences including boat landings and bathing facilities. William Watson, golf course architect, who constructed Anandale, Flintridge and Hillcrest, has started preliminary work on laying out the course." (4/27/1924)

"The course [Riviera] has been ably studied by William Watson, the well-known and conservative golf architect, who has perhaps laid out more golf courses than any other man in the West. In order to overlook no bets, the club has engaged 'Billy' Bell, the rising young golf architect who studied under Watson, to make an independent layout so that every possibility would be considered. And then as though this was not making assurance doubly sure, the club has enlisted the interest of George C. Thomas Jr., to supervise the entire show and when Mr. Thomas supervises anything, he only puts in twenty-six hours a day at it....Mr. Thomas has walked over the land several times, made two or three maps of it, studied its possibilities, and announced that he wouldn't have anything to with it if he didn't think it could be made different and better than anything he had ever seen." (1/24/1926)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 02:30:17 PM by Tom MacWood »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2009, 02:35:20 PM »
This is fascinating.  My understanding is that he also did Interlachen, which was subsequently completely re-done by Ross.

Should we move all of these posts to a Willie Watson thread?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2009, 03:11:09 PM »

As I told you in private email, I think your digging and finding skills are much more evolved and valuble than your interpretive skills.  It seems to me that your theories always rely on a lot of fantastic coincidences to be true, while I believe that the simplest explanation usually is the most correct.


Jeff
I think my interpretive skills are pretty good too. Your ability to interpret is directly related to your overall knowledge and the amount of information you have available and I have a hell of lot information. The people complaining don't have the same information I have.

We've only scratched the surface of documenting golf architecture history, and because of that there are plenty of opportunities for new discoveries, and often those discoveries don't sit well with people. In the past when I've claimed Willie Campbell laid out Myopia or Flynn did not design Heartwellville or Crump killed himself or Watson is responsible for White Bear or Old Tom Morris's design accomplishments are exaggerated or Barker was one of the premier architects or some other idea that goes against our general understanding, thats often when you would hear the complaints he is good at research, but not interpreting it. I think record shows my research and interpretations are mostly on the mark, not always, but most of the time.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2009, 03:32:37 PM »
Tom,

If nothing else, these articles show that many important clubs ended up consulting many different people!  Apparently, not many of them really trusted the then young field of gca.  Riv had Watson, Bell and Thomas according to that writer?  That is not unlike the MCC story, where different people called in Barker, Whigham, and their own committee.

I am not sure what any of that means, but one of the tenants of the MCC discussion is to understand it in context of the times.  I am not sure any of us do that very well.

BTW, it would appear to me that in this case, laid out meant to design, no?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2009, 05:14:19 PM »
I too am curious as to what "laid out" means.  If it means design, then what purpose does Ross or Thomas or others serve when they come in after the design.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Yancey_Beamer

Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2009, 10:37:28 PM »
Belvedere was for me a most enjoyable Sunday afternoon.Simplicity and FUN.A almost forgotton element of design.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2009, 10:19:14 AM »
I have played both of Watson's Michigan courses Belvedere GC and Charlevoix GC and enjoyed both of them.  As I stated on a previous thread about White Bear Yacht Club, the course looked a lot different than any of the other Ross courses I have played.

Chris

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2009, 02:34:00 PM »
And, from theToledo Country Club web page:

"The Toledo Country Club is one of the oldest and finest Country Clubs in the Midwest, established in 1897 with the purchase of approximately thirty acres of land along the Maumee River. A nine-hole golf course was constructed almost immediately while today’s Clubhouse was completed by 1901. The course was originally designed by British Open Champion Willie Park Jr. and was later redesigned by Arthur Hills. "

What dates did Watson and Park work?  Did Park redo and then expand the 9 holes?

Just asking. Like Tom, I do find all this history interesting.  And it appears that architectural attributions just weren't considered quite as important to make in those days.

Toledo CC is so proud of their Willie Park Jr. Course design that they include him with Arthur Hills on their website and have a link to Art Hills site!!!! ::)

I played a Willie Park Jr. course in Ohio that celebrated their Willie Park Jr. heritage in a different way - they displayed Park's orginal desgin drawings, layout, and individual hole plans.

Chris

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2009, 02:40:44 PM »
And, from theToledo Country Club web page:

"The Toledo Country Club is one of the oldest and finest Country Clubs in the Midwest, established in 1897 with the purchase of approximately thirty acres of land along the Maumee River. A nine-hole golf course was constructed almost immediately while today’s Clubhouse was completed by 1901. The course was originally designed by British Open Champion Willie Park Jr. and was later redesigned by Arthur Hills. "

What dates did Watson and Park work?  Did Park redo and then expand the 9 holes?

Just asking. Like Tom, I do find all this history interesting.  And it appears that architectural attributions just weren't considered quite as important to make in those days.

Toledo CC is so proud of their Willie Park Jr. Course design that they include him with Arthur Hills on their website and have a link to Art Hills site!!!! ::)

I played a Willie Park Jr. course in Ohio that celebrated their Willie Park Jr. heritage in a different way - they displayed Park's orginal desgin drawings, layout, and individual hole plans.

Chris


The real question is, how close is the current version of the course to the original design?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2009, 03:04:36 PM »
And, from theToledo Country Club web page:

"The Toledo Country Club is one of the oldest and finest Country Clubs in the Midwest, established in 1897 with the purchase of approximately thirty acres of land along the Maumee River. A nine-hole golf course was constructed almost immediately while today’s Clubhouse was completed by 1901. The course was originally designed by British Open Champion Willie Park Jr. and was later redesigned by Arthur Hills. "

What dates did Watson and Park work?  Did Park redo and then expand the 9 holes?

Just asking. Like Tom, I do find all this history interesting.  And it appears that architectural attributions just weren't considered quite as important to make in those days.

Toledo CC is so proud of their Willie Park Jr. Course design that they include him with Arthur Hills on their website and have a link to Art Hills site!!!! ::)

I played a Willie Park Jr. course in Ohio that celebrated their Willie Park Jr. heritage in a different way - they displayed Park's orginal desgin drawings, layout, and individual hole plans.

Chris


The real question is, how close is the current version of the course to the original design?

My point was that Toledo CC must not be that proud of Park as he is co-listed on the webpage.  From what I have seen, there are not a lot of Art Hills elements at Toledo CC.  I have no idea if it is or is not close to the original design.  However, if I had a classic course built when TCC was, I would not be championing Art Hills invovlement if it was minimal.

Chris

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2009, 03:05:51 PM »
Chris,

Maybe it was part of the (reduced) fee.  Also, Art Hills is a big name in these parts and may be more of a draw than Park!!
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2009, 03:11:22 PM »
JC Jones,

I am well aware that Mr. Hills is very big in these parts and for the record, I am not anti-Art Hills courses (I even know where his unique office is).  You may be right on how the contract was constructed.  But I do believe this proves that are not as proud as they may come across about their Park course.

Chris