Show Us Your Redan’s: Langford Moreau's 4th at Lawsonia

[Eric_Terhorst]

Great pictures on this thread, thanks contributors.

This weekend I've been reading Pete Dye's "Bury Me in a Pot Bunker," in which he extols the virtues of Raynor's Camargo and mentions the Redan, 192 yd #15 (pictured in one of Dan's posts above) as being an inspiration to him.  He describes the Redan as follows:

"...such a hole normally requires the golfer to hit a long iron or wood shot to a green fortified by a strategically positioned deep bunker. That green is usually set at almost a 45-degree angle from the expected line of flight.   The key to this design is the slope of the green.  The front portion is elevated and then a severe contour flows down and away.  As a result a good portion of the green is blind or semi-blind from the tee."

The design characteristics, he says "challenge the golfer to hit just the right spot for the ball to roll down to a back pin placement."

Note the qualifiers "normally" and "usually" leave some room for design variance, but the slope of the green is identified by Mr. Dye as "key." I still say the 4th at Lawsonia doesn't quite qualify.  

He lists Redans among his own designs at Crooked Stick (#13), Ocean Course Kiawah (#14) and Brickyard Crossing (#7).  

Here's a pic of the Kiawah hole from Ran's review.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's the Redan at Charles Banks' Cavalier G&YC in Virginia
Beach, VA, an unusual one, on a peninsula surrounded by water:


a pretty large green, too:

[Phil McDade]

Scott:

That's maybe the shallowest Banks bunker I've even seen. Interesting take on a Redan -- isn't one of the characteristics of a Redan the penal bunker fronting the green? Fronting Redan bunkers usually (from what I've seen) come with lots of  depth, which makes the decision to go directly at a pin behind that bunker all the more problematic. It looks like taking aim at that pin, and coming up short, isn't too bad a proposition -- certainly better than being long!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Phil,

I agree, though I think the green would need to be raised,
since it looks that if the bunker were any deeper, they'd hit the water table!

[Paul Sinclair]

The Banks' course at Cavalier Golf & Yacht Club was redone by Lester George in (I think) the late 90's. I don't know if the Redan hole there as shown in Scott's post was touched up much or not in the renovation. I haven't played the course in more than 15 years so I can't remember what it was like before the remodel.

George redesigned the 11th hole at Willow Oaks Country Club (Richmond, VA) during a recently completed renovation. I'll call it "Redan-inspired" to avoid the question of whether it meets all (or any?) of the criteria for a classic Redan. Course is still closed for grow-in. Hole is not as downhill as it appears in top two photos - they were taken from a cherry picker bucket above the tee.

[Lester George]

Phil,

Scot hit the nail on the head.  I could not go any deeper because of the water table.  Raising the green (which I did about 3 feet) is the only other option.  The club did not want to go too high because they wanted to keep their view of Linkhorn Bay in the back.  As with most things, there has to be compromise.

Paul,  

Sounds like we need to take your group to Cavalier.  You won't have to twist my arm.  Some of the coolest holes I have ever had the pleasure of working on.  Name the day.

Lester

[Phil McDade]

Lester:

Thanks for the background. I posted that, then realized right away what Scott was getting at -- we don't worry too much about hitting water tables here in Wisconsin. It would've been neat to see a green really raised up, with something of a skyline look to it, with the golfer on the tee knowing trouble lurked behind. The more I see of skyline greens, the more I like them as an interesting architectural feature.

I like the look at that Redan-esque par 3 at Willow Oaks, background and all (esp. the bridge).

[Lester George]

Phil,

Thanks.  The Willow Oaks Redan style hole is special.  What most people can't see is the 70 foot vertical quarry wall to the right, tightens people up just a little.  

Paul Sinclair can send a picture.  Also, if someone (maybe Paul) would like to post a picture of number 8 at the Old White, I'll send the picture.  It may add to this discussion because it is the only one I know of with "Dragons Teeth" in front.  I added them back in after discovering them in an aerial photo.

Lester

[Bill Gayne]

The 14th the at Kinloch is similar to the hole at Cavalier.

[Lester George]

Nice picture, Bill.  Thanks for posting it.  I really believe the 14th is under-appreciated but considering where it is in the round and the prevailing wind (normally hurting from the right) it has ruined a bunch of rounds even at 160 yards.

Lester

[Paul Sinclair]

Old White Course at the Greenbrier: Redan #8 with an unusual twist.

[Mike McGuire]

Paul

Interesting image. Thanks for posting it.

With the mountain in the background - I wonder how good the hole would look sans the pines behind the green?

[RJ_Daley]

I have to agree with Mike, the trees detract greatly, particularly the little arbors next to cart path and the one guarding the left side.  The hole is so cool, it should stand alone without a frame.  The backdrop of the mountainside is plenty.  The pines look like so many of those of about that age... planted in the dark age of golf maintenance and course "sprucing" up.  

[Bill Gayne]

On Paul's Old White picture were the chocolate drops restored recently? I would think maintenance staffs at many courses would overtime push to eliminate features such as these mounds.

[Joe Hancock]

In Paul's photo above, what possible reason is there for the existence of the chocolate chips in front of the bunker?

Joe

[Lester George]

Gents,

Some of those trees are gone now, however, it will never be enough for me either.  We took out over 800 trees and need to take another 800.

As for the Dragons Teeth, they were part of MacDonald/Raynor's original hole,  We found evidence of them on an old aerial photo so we restored them.  

The superintendent for the Old White was one of the most supportive of the re-creation of the Dragons Teeth because he understands architecture and the importance of them in the broader sense of the restoration.  

I showed that picture to a group of supers at a turf conference and one of them made the brilliant observation that they would be difficult to maintain and he almost got booed out of the room.  The point is that some features are just worth the trouble of maintaining because they distinguish the course and enhance the interest.

Lester

[Norbert P]

#11 @ Bandon Crossings

[RJ_Daley]

Joe, nostalgia.

If the drops were there  (for what ever reason from just spoils from digging the bunker and never removed, to buried large boulders not worth the effort to remove at time of construction) if they found the photos that show their original existence, then it isn't just whimsy that Lester restored them. It is being faithful to restroring unique aspects of an historic course that bring the emotion of nostalgia and respect to the origins.  

It is good to see that the supers, who bear the brunt of the extra work to maintain these, seem to have recognised the value of restoring and preserving something this unique.

I showed that picture to a group of supers at a turf conference and one of them made the brilliant observation that they would be difficult to maintain and he almost got booed out of the room.  The point is that some features are just worth the trouble of maintaining because they distinguish the course and enhance the interest.

[Matt Waterbury]

#9 at Black Rock...the green can't be seen from the tee, and is actually out there 150 yards starting at the bunker on the right and working across behind the bunker on the left...it's playing a little slow today, but is generally one of the fastest greens on the course...think warm thoughts and you'll be able to see it  

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, welcome to GCA.com and the anti-global warming era...  

[Mark Saltzman]

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[Mark Saltzman]

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