Should Pine Valley be restored? 1930 v 2012 aerial comparison

[Mark Bourgeois]

From the Hell's Half Acre of 1930...to the Hell's Third Acre of today?!

Which holes have lost the most width? Where has tree encroachment been most significant?

http://golfcoursehistories.com/PVGC.html

[Jason Topp]

Cool comparison!  Based on my quick look the course looks remarkably well preserved with the exception of some well documented tree encroachment.

[Patrick_Mucci]

From the Hell's Half Acre of 1930...to the Hell's Third Acre of today?!

Which holes have lost the most width? Where has tree encroachment been most significant?

http://golfcoursehistories.com/PVGC.html

Mark,

I've championed a restoration to circa 1926 due to the photographic evidence I've seen.

Since I began advocating a restorative effort, some tree/underbrush clearing has taken place.

One of the biggest differences I've noticed at PV and GCGC is the loss of sandy areas to grass/trees.

If you're putting this to a vote, you've got mine.

[David Harshbarger]

The contrast on 12(?) the sharp dogleg left, which has been discussed here, is remarkable.  Talk about line of instinct vs. line of charm, wow!  Open up that view of the green and there are sure to be some itchy palms.

[Bill Crane]

Looks like the 1930 shot illustrates the second parallel fairway on the right of #17.

[BCrosby]

Great stuff Mark. The narrowing of the course jumps out at you. Not just the 17th (Bill is right about the upper alternative fw on 17), but virtually every hole was considerably wider in 1930.

It would be nice to get a clearer handle on the size and density of the trees from your older aerial. Note that the bunkers still visible on the left of the 4th fw in 1930 are now under tree cover or gone.

Bob 

[Bill Shotzbarger]

IMO, no. If it were actually a problem, the membership would have handled it by now.

Not only are the people at PVGC extremely attentive to their golf course, they're attentive to the TREES on the golf course and the rest of the property.

The certified arborists from Shreiner Tree Care work on Pine Valley every winter. They even go so far as to only send out one crew of workers to make sure that the crew working on PV is very familiar with the property.



Pic taken from Shreiner's web site: http://www.shreinertreecare.com/golf-property-consulting.php

[Mike_Cocking]

I would love to see the alternate strip of fairway up the right of 17 opened up again.

[Mark McKeever]

The course is really well preserved with the exception of the trees encroaching in a few areas.  I would love to see more of it opened up, so you have my vote also.

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bill, thanks for that pic -- strong photographic evidence supporting Patrick's case of how much more needs to be done.

[Jeff_Mingay]

As others have already pointed out above, it's simply the size/width of the sandy areas that have been lost to tree growth. Otherwise, I agree, the course is remarkably well-preserved.

Restoring/enlarging those sandy areas (as it appears the club may be doing) would be really dramatic though. 

[David Harshbarger]

Three holes where playability seems to be impacted are:

11- Trees pinch in the approach both left and right where before right, particularly, was sandy.
12 - Trees obscure the line from tee to green, and define the dogleg, as opposed to letting the sandy hazard define the dogleg.
17 - The alternate fairway is gone.

There are a number of other holes where it looks like sandy areas off the main line of play are filled in, like left on 9, and behind the green on 15, and to the left across the lake on 15. 

Cool stuff, thanks, Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

The culling of trees is a recent endeavor.

The course suffered from benign neglect for decades and decades to the degree that you could be in the left side of the 17th fairway and totally blocked from seeing and hitting the green.

Trees encroached into bunkers to the degree that they interfered with your backswing, and, many bunkers formerly well within the playing corridors were lost to invasive growth, vis a vis benign neglect.

As to the members, they have very little say.  Pine Valley has just about the best form of governance.
However, with that form of governance, isolation and an air of infallibility tend to set in, and that leads to benign neglect.

Fortunately, Pine Valley finally came to recognize that tree/underbrush encroachment had diminished the value/s of the course and play on the course, but more needs to be done to recapture and return all of the features that Crump/Colt created nearly a century ago.

[Tyler Kearns]

Anybody know when the alternate green on #9 was built? It certainly appears to be there in 1930, only 11 years after the course opened.

TK

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

As others have already pointed out above, it's simply the size/width of the sandy areas that have been lost to tree growth. Otherwise, I agree, the course is remarkably well-preserved.

Restoring/enlarging those sandy areas (as it appears the club may be doing) would be really dramatic though. 

Just remember that some of those areas have become grassed over time to protect the course. The sandy soils and steep slopes caused lot of erosion and maintenance issues so selective grassing helped stabilize them and protect the other surrounding features. The club do actively cut back bunker edges in the native areas to ensure they stay close to where they should be

[Patrick_Mucci]

As others have already pointed out above, it's simply the size/width of the sandy areas that have been lost to tree growth. Otherwise, I agree, the course is remarkably well-preserved.

Restoring/enlarging those sandy areas (as it appears the club may be doing) would be really dramatic though. 

Just remember that some of those areas have become grassed over time to protect the course. The sandy soils and steep slopes caused lot of erosion and maintenance issues so selective grassing helped stabilize them and protect the other surrounding features. The club do actively cut back bunker edges in the native areas to ensure they stay close to where they should be

Alan,

I don't buy that for a second.

Would you identify and cite with specificity where grass was used to stabilize the golf course

[Jim Sherma]

As others have already pointed out above, it's simply the size/width of the sandy areas that have been lost to tree growth. Otherwise, I agree, the course is remarkably well-preserved.

Restoring/enlarging those sandy areas (as it appears the club may be doing) would be really dramatic though. 

Just remember that some of those areas have become grassed over time to protect the course. The sandy soils and steep slopes caused lot of erosion and maintenance issues so selective grassing helped stabilize them and protect the other surrounding features. The club do actively cut back bunker edges in the native areas to ensure they stay close to where they should be

Alan,

I don't buy that for a second.

Would you identify and cite with specificity where grass was used to stabilize the golf course

In "The Nature Faker" the fronts of both the 2nd and the 18th greens were referenced as having washout issues. The origiinal front left bunkering of 10's green was also unstable and the DA was put in at the time it was altered. Not sure if there are others but these changes at least appear to be well documented.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

As mentioned, the front of 2, front of 18 and 10 (around the DA). For greens surrounds - off the top of my head - you can also add the front of 17. 14 has issues with springs....

I'm sure there are more subtle ones in non-green sites, where the water collects and would wash an area out. For example I know there were a lot of issues between hells half acre and 8. Trust me, you learn a lot of the subtleties of the design/property by being out there every day and just how much erosion happens when you have to put it all back after a storm.

During my time there, they started cutting the sod areas back to flash more sand however a lot of thought was put into what would wash and those areas left to prevent future issues.

[JSlonis]

Alan,

A lot of the issues on #14 have been eliminated with the addition of a Sub-Air system under that green. It was installed last off season and the green was in better condition than I've ever seen it this year.

[Patrick_Mucci]

As others have already pointed out above, it's simply the size/width of the sandy areas that have been lost to tree growth. Otherwise, I agree, the course is remarkably well-preserved.

Restoring/enlarging those sandy areas (as it appears the club may be doing) would be really dramatic though. 

Just remember that some of those areas have become grassed over time to protect the course. The sandy soils and steep slopes caused lot of erosion and maintenance issues so selective grassing helped stabilize them and protect the other surrounding features. The club do actively cut back bunker edges in the native areas to ensure they stay close to where they should be

Alan,

I don't buy that for a second.

Would you identify and cite with specificity where grass was used to stabilize the golf course

In "The Nature Faker" the fronts of both the 2nd and the 18th greens were referenced as having washout issues.

I wouldn't cite "The Nature Faker" as the defining source.

In addition, those areas just weren't grassed, they were reconfigured.

The origiinal front left bunkering of 10's green was also unstable and the DA was put in at the time it was altered.


The DA is on the front right side of # 10 and was established due to drainage/washouts in that area.

A fronting lip was added to the DA at around the time the Walker Cup was played there to divert surface water from the green and to prevent balls on the green from running back into it.

Not sure if there are others but these changes at least appear to be well documented.

Not in the way you describe.

[Gary Slatter]

Mark, PV restore only if some of the members from 1930 want it renovated. 

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Alan,

A lot of the issues on #14 have been eliminated with the addition of a Sub-Air system under that green. It was installed last off season and the green was in better condition than I've ever seen it this year.

I'm well aware of that and it looked great when I was there before the Crump. I was specifically talking about the hill/wooded area between the tees / 13 to the pond