[Dan Moore]

Continuing with the examination of the par 3's at Lawsonia and the connection of Langford Moreau to the National School we turn to the Redan.  Some contend Lawsonia's 4th and 7th holes are modeled on MacDonald and Raynor’s template versions of the Short and Redan.  Here we'll take a look at the 4th at Lawsonia.  

Lawsonia's 4th is a long (205 yds in 1930) dramatically uphill (1-2 clubs) one shot hole.  While long in its day it wasn't the longest par 3 at Lawsonia.  The dominant feature of the hole is an extremely deep grass faced bunker angled into the left half of the green.  This bunker is angled from front to back much like a typical redan bunker guarding the fortress.  A second bunker is located on the back left of the green.  Like many Redan's a third bunker protects the back right area.  The green sits atop a hill with the main bunker carved out of the hill a good 10-12 feet below the green surface.  

A quirk of the hole is an offset tee pad that is aligned well to the right of the line of play.  Like many Langford holes the fairway balloons to the right of the line of play in the direction of a safe pathway to the mouth of the green.  A play short and right gives a direct and clear line to the green.  Clearly Langford was providing an alternate path for the weaker player or the player who wanted nothing to do with the deep bunker on the right.

The green itself is quite large and like most Langford greens oval in shape.  I will guess the green is 40-45 paces deep and almost as wide.  Unlike most redan’s the green does not have a kickboard on the upper right hand side of the green and does not slope from the right front to back left.  If anything the green slopes a little from back to front and has a fair amount of relatively modest internal contour.

Some dislike the hole because the very ample green surface is completely invisible from the tee.  This inability to see the green surface only accentuates the depth and size of the left fronting bunker.   However, this complaint is often overcome with repeat play when you understand how enormous the green is and come to realize that even if you can't see the green surface, the target is in full view .  Once one learns to take into account the effect of the uphill approach, trepedation often turns to appreciation.    

The fronting bunker aligned diagonally certainly looks to be inspired by the Redan.  However, given the absence of two essential characteristics of a Redan, a kickboard and the fact the green is not sloped and angled diagonally from right front to back left, I am unable to agree this hole is a Redan.   Other opinions are welcome.  

In the end the label doesn’t really matter.  The hole hides it challenges from view to test  your ability to visualize the shot at hand and provides a great test of mind and execution.  Another of the holes at Lawsonia that one comes to appreciate more and more with repeat play.  

The view from the tee.  Flag is visible behind the front left bunker.


From the opening to the right.  Note the depth of the bunker.  


A view from the green to the tee.


A view from the 5th tee providing a good view of the green surface.


The hole drawing showing how the fairway flairs to the right to provide an alternate line of play.
                                       

1939
                                       

1992 pretty well preserved with some lost green surface which has been recaptured in recnt years.  
                                       

[JNagle]

Dan -

Glad to see you conveyed doubt as to whether or not #4 can be deemed a Redan.  I was reading your description, all the while thinking it was a stretch.  I kept recalling in my mind that green does not have to prototypical cant as seen on other Redans.  Great post, I enjoy this hole and believe it is one of the undervalued on such a great course.  In fact the stretch of holes beginning with 4 and ending at 14 are some of my favorite anywhere.  A study of the par 3's at Lawsonia would be a great discussion considering the classic nature of many of the holes; Long, Short, Plateau, semi-Redan....

[Eric_Terhorst]

Dan,

Thanks for this post.  I too really enjoy this hole, though I don't think of it as a Redan, it's just a good solid uphill par 3 with that intriguing deception in the size of the green that you mention.  I was fortunate to play the North Berwick version once, and I found that hole really scary, a wonderful example of a par 3 that is an easy double bogey.

  I guess for me the 4th at Lawsonia is missing some of the strategic qualities of the original, and mainly (for me) the fear factor of the original.  You mention the relative generosity and oval shape of the green surface--I think a talented player could try a high cut into this hole and have a fair amount of room for error, whereas on the classic Redans this isn't so.  And I agree with you that its lack of the high bank on the right and the relatively wide opening at the front distinguish this hole from the more fearsome examples.  I don't think the challenges around the green are as great.  

The hole is fun to play and has a good selection of options, but it's not a Redan.

[Adam Clayman]

If downhill holes with a green cant can be called a Redan, This one can too.

[Phil McDade]

Ah, the 4th at Lawsonia -- the course's hardest par 3 (although Ron Forse may disagree). I've always thought of the 4th as "Redan-esque," as opposed to being a true Redan.

Excerpts from Bahto's GCA interview on templates:

"What more accurate way to describe a 'Redan' than Macdonald's own words? 'Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side, approach it diagonally, and you have a Redan.' Bear in mind when Macdonald says 'tilt,' he means it. At National, hole #4 falls over five feet from front to rear. Redans are usually around 190 yards (a formidable distance in the early days of golf) with numerous strategic options depending on wind direction and course conditions: Fly it to the green if you are able, lay-up and chip on hoping to make three, hit a running shot at the banked area fronting the green or even play left of the Redan bunker hoping for a better approach angle (not recommended!). Behind the green are usually deep sand pits to catch aggressive play."

I'd argue Lawsonia's 4th captures most of those elements. It provides options for how to play it. It has a deep bunker fronting left. Bunkers in back catch the overly aggressive play.

What it lacks is the high tilt to the right side of the green. Still, the green complex is accepting of a running draw, the kind of shot option that Redans, from my reading, are designed to accept, or not openly discourage.

I'm curious about two features that have creeped into discussions about Redans -- that of the "banked area" right of the green that can serve as something of an aiming point for a tee shot, with the result of boosting the shot toward the sloped green and a left-side pin position. Is the banked slope an essential element of a Redan? Is it a Redan if the hole has all of the other elements save for the banked slope? (I'd note that the 7th at Shinnecock, often described as the hardest Redan in golf because of its severely tilted green, appears to have no such banked slope.)

Secondly, does a downhill tee shot make a Redan (complete with the requisite characteristics) essentially not a Redan? Most Redans I've seen pictures of depict either an uphill tee shot or one in which the green is perched above the surrounding land, in part to provide the depth of bunkering left front essential to any Redan.

The GCA course reviews are full of descriptions and pictures of Redans -- Shinnecock, the National, Carmargo, Piping Rock, Fishers Island, Westhampton, Lookout Mtn., St. Louis, CC of Charleston, Yale, Yeamans Hall. Interestingly, Langford/Moreau built what appears to be a Redan at Culver Academies, with the required green tilt and bank lacking at the 4th at Lawsonia. The instigator of this thread has played Culver Academies; thoughts on the similarities and contrasts of the two? (To my eyes, the 15th at Carmargo most closely approximates the look of Lawsonia's 4th.)

In GCA discussions about template holes, I'm struck by the melding of debate about how the hole should play, compared to how the hole should look. One can't help but think Langford and Moreau had seen plenty of Redans when designing the 4th at Lawsonia; it certainly looks the part. That it doesn't play exactly as a Redan suggests Langford was more interested in designing his own version of the Redan template, as opposed to truly replicating it. But that's not too far from what Macdonald and Raynor did; Macdonald at the National didn't seem to be interested in designing and building exact duplicates so much as utilizing design concepts to mirror the strategies of the great holes he saw overseas.

[Adam Clayman]

Shiv, The green/hole is more akin to the original concept, due to its fortified nature, which is not a mirage.  

[Dan Moore]

Thanks for the comments.  

The Wisconsin branch of the Langford Moreau cult is either too cold or too preoccupied with the upcoming BIG GAME to comment.  I remember the famous Ice Bowl in 1967 and going out to the driveway to play basketball during half time.  At 13 below the ball didn't bounce very well.

Back to Langford.  With Jim's encouragement I think I will cover the other 3 par at Lawsonia in another post.

One of the really interesting things about this hole and the Short we talked about last week is how it shows Langford took classic elements and used them without being beholden to a strict interpretation.  The Redan bunker simply fits the nature of this hole even if the other elements of the classic Redan are not present.  Same with the use of the Principal's nose bunker on the 6th hole.  

In any event since noone has posted photos of other Redan's here are a few.  Note the similarity of the Piping Rock Redan.  The original was built in 1911-12 which would overlap with Langford's tenure as a graduate student at Columbia University.  Most photos are from Ran's reviews.

Camargo


Yale


Piping Rock


And Langford Moreau at Culver Academy

[Dan Moore]

Thanks Phil and Kelly.  I see you slipped those in while I was working on my post.  

Phil,  Culver does have kickboard mounding to the right.  I question its status as a true redan due to the lack of significant right to left and front to back tilt.  

[RJ_Daley]

Dan, sorry... I just got distracted by the shiny spoons dangled by all those econ gurus on Veblen goods thread.  

I wish someone would find some Langford-Morreau correspondence where they refer to holes like #4 Lawsonia, to see if they ever themselves referred to it as a "redan".   I can only guess that they would say it is 'their' redan.  Why do they have to recreate the template completely and faithfully to have 'a' version of the redan?  It has everything but the kickplate, IMHO.  Perhaps the back rear right bunker is just a tad extended forward and right to be exact.  But, if that green edge were only raised 2 feet along the back right rear edge, I can't see how it wouldn't be an exact "redan" rather than a version of a redan.  The ideal shot is the same, a low running draw-to hook.  I can't see how anyone would 'go to' a high fade cut, no matter how deft they are.  And, if you think about it, long and long left beyond the rampart redan bunker is not a bad play either, though for most of us that would require a 3 wood to go long.  But, certainly I would think that long is better than short in that monster bunker.  The back bunker is better to be than the short front.  Regarding Piping Rock's redan, I'd suggest L&Ms  version of a redanish hole might play better than the PR version.  But, of course I never actually played PR...  But I have played Yeamans and Blue Mound, two very perfectly ideal redans.  And, from my perspective, Lawsonia's only lacks the kick plate to be as perfect.  But, why would L&M want the perfect copy, when they built one that is just as much fun and challenging?  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Black Creek #7 (Nader):


Black Creek #11 (Redan):


Rivermont (GA) #4:






Stonewall (North) #17:

[Jim Nugent]

Scott - Black Creek #11, the green looks like it moves back to front.  If so, is this hole really a Redan?  (Also appears to be downhill, making the green even easier to hold.)  

Number 7 at BC looks like it fits the bill better, as a reverse Redan.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jim,

I agree, it's not the best Redan (too much of a drop shot),
but that is what it's supposed to be (on scorecard of Raynor
replica course).  It's also pictured in Ran's course profile of BC
 
with his subtitle: "The ten foot deep bunker behind the Redan green is barely visible. A draw that
hits front right will release across the green"

[Dan Moore]

Dick,  

It seems to me there are three essential components of a Redan.  1)  A shallow green set on a diagonal to the line of play.  2)  A large fronting bunker set into the diagonal of the green.  3)  Significant front to back slope that enables a ball to use the slope of the green to feed to back hole location behind the fronting bunker, a location that is very difficult to get at along a direct line because of the bunker and shallow green.  Lawsonia does not have the 1st and 3rd features so I don't feel it is a Redan, but is clearly derivitive and inspired by a Redan in particular the look of the hole provided by the fronting bunker.  I agree it would be really informative to find their descriptions of the holes at Lawsonia.  I wonder if any of the Wisconsin papers covered the construction and opening of the course?

Scott,  Thanks for the photos here and on the Short thread.  Very nice.

Hunt,  Thanks for neat shots of STLGC.  Are you familiar with St Clair CC the Langford Moreau course in Belleview, Il.  I have some business in St Louis in the Spring and hope to check it out.  

[RJ_Daley]

Dan, for clarification, you don't mean the 2nd and 3rd features, do you?  Don't you mean 1rst and 3rd (not a particularly narrow green on diagonal, and not a front to rear slope).  I can't see how you'd imply the bunker isn't fronting and guarding the straight to middle and left rear of the green?  

But, as for the narrow green on the diagonal, I wonder to what degree a true redan is all that narrow.  The ones I've seen by Raynor are not overly narrow, with Yeaman's being more narrow than Blue Mound.  
Yeamans




Blue MoundCC





One think on the various versions and interpretations of the redan are the approaches sweeping around the kickplate from right to left.  Some versions have green mowed out into the full width of the kickplate, others have foregreen cut, like we see above in BMCC.

I don't have the photo handy, but Angels Crossing has a monster redan, interpretation.  Big kick in area, and huge green, not narrow, and ominous redan guarding bunkers.  

I think all are valid interpretations of a general concept of play, being the grounder bound in and trickle down option, the flight into the gut of the kickplate and trickle down, and the direct flight right to the hole.  All, being the ideal redan pin placements to highlight the working of the hole.  But, the deeper green redans, do offer a few more pins, and when they are mid to right side of green, and directly below kick plates, they are of course a different shot demand.  thus, I think that the bigger green concept, with more pins, is merely after thoughts of archies looking to make the classic hole even better.  

[Dan Moore]

Dick,  Thanks.  Indeed I meant 1st and 3rd features and have corrected my post so it reads correctly.  I think the Redan green needs to be somewhat narrow so that the ground features which feed the ball to the back locations have strategic value compared to a direct line to the hole.  The Redan at Blue Mound looks like fun.  

[RJ_Daley]

Yes, I'd say I like BM better.  But, the times I played there, it was quite soft from heavy rains and the kick didn't function well.  I think they could easily mow the BM green out 15-20ft more and still have it a classic Redan.  

Note on the pic of YH that the pin is to the right of the guarding redan bunker.  That really does give the golfer more incentive to just fly it directly and maybe spin back (if it is set up shorter than <160ish) rather than the bounce in grounder.  

[Hunt]

Dan,

I have not played St. Clair so not familiar with.

[Phil McDade]

Dick:

What does Yeamans Hall's Redan play it? My understanding of a Redan is that it is set at at least 175-180, and probably moreso at @ 190 yds., in order to present the golfer with the option of the direct flight at the pin, or the running draw/draw at the bank shot that utilizes the contours of a true Redan. The direct flight option is the riskier of the two, in part because it carries directly over the bunker hazard and stopping at shot on a green that's more narrow that deep at that point is much tougher at 190 yds vs. 160. Heck, I might take aim at Lawsonia's typical #4 pin at 160; I have yet to aim directly at it played at traditional Redan lengths.

I've always thought length is a pretty key consideration when assessing how true to form Macdonald/Raynor template par 3s play. A Short really shouldn't play any longer than @ 150 (a precise short-iron shot), a Redan at @ 190 (a long iron), and a Biarritz 200+ yds certainly (requiring a wood usually). The defenses and character of the holes is partly derived from the type of clubs used to attack them.

[wsmorrison]

Philadelphia Country Club 7th




Huntingdon Valley Country Club 3rd (rear right bunker not original)



Shinnecock Hills 7th

[Alfonso Erhardt]

I'll have to learn to make my pictures smaller...... Sorry!!!!!!

[wsmorrison]

That's OK, Alfonso.  Tom Paul just got a 32" monitor so he is certainly enjoying your photo without having to use any buttons or mouse  

[RJ_Daley]

Alfonso, I've had good luck using:
 http://www.irfanview.net/
The have an easy download program that has a resize button that works well.  

If you delete your previous post, and start over with a
resized file, it would be nice...  

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Thanks RJ, I had not seen the delete button either. Not of the technical sort of person.

Now the #6 of La Galea, in resized size....for those who do not have the 32'' monitor, Wayne.

Reverse redan with really tilted green diagonal front-to-back.

[Jeff Doerr]

The 14th Reserve North Cupp (a little short for a Redan, but the green is firm and even a 7 or 8 iron can be a challenge)


The 17th Illahe Hills (back left is a lower level)

[Dean DiBerardino]

The 6th at Fox Chapel (Nader)

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()