Driveable Par 4's

[John Foley]

Brad & Tom,

Definetly meant to say #8 at Sand Hills from the up tee's. The way the fairway will funnel the ball either onto  the gree  or into that center bunker really makes it a great hole. I'd say much better from there than from the back tee's, unless your playing into a headwind, which I think is prevailing.

As for #15 on Wild Horse the green is at a very tough angle to allow you to get on. That plus w/ the location of the front bunker it require's a  fade and I'm not sure the ground contours will allow it. Plus a fade from that distance would be really tough to get it on. Is Dick around and can he comment?

[THuckaby2]

You might be able to tell - my good drive is a hard fade.  Thus just as #1 at NGLA sets up well for Pat Mucci, each of 8 Sand Hills and 15 Wild Horse set up great for me... I guess drivability is in the eye of the beholder!  I didn't hit 15 at Wild Horse either try, but I did get one drive right of the green past the front bunker to where I could putt.. oh yeah, downwind it can be done.  A really big hitter could do it with an iron I'd have to guess, with the wind we had anyway.  And yeah, I reached 7 Sand Hills from the up tee and you are right on, the way the ball trumbles along the left side and down onto or near the green is indeed really cool.

TH

[Doug Wright]

Agree that Tom Doak's 6th at Apache Stronghold is a really fun driveable par 4. My favourite, though, is the 4th at one of my hidden gems, Grandote in Southern Colorado (Weiskopf/Morrish), a strataway 300 yard par 4 with a terrific very narrow,sloped u-shaped green and a small pot bunker right in front. The potential pin placements are great. I also like the 6th at Pacific Dunes. I played it in the winter wind from the south and it was drivable, but that HUGE blowout bunker left of the green makes it a major risk.

I really don't like a lot of these designs because they are often unreachable for mortals, and thus lose strategic interest.

All The Best,

[Doug Wright]

Agree that Tom Doak's 6th at Apache Stronghold is a really fun driveable par 4. My favourite, though, is the 4th at one of my hidden gems, Grandote in Southern Colorado (Weiskopf/Morrish), a strataway 300 yard par 4 with a terrific very narrow,sloped u-shaped green and a small pot bunker right in front. The potential pin placements are great. I also like the 6th at Pacific Dunes. I played it in the winter wind from the south and it was drivable, but that HUGE blowout bunker left of the green makes it a major risk.

I really don't like a lot of these designs because they are often unreachable for mortals, and thus lose strategic interest.

All The Best,

[Rick Shefchik]

As I get older and (hopefully) wiser, I find I am almost never tempted to drive a "driveable" par 4. I get plenty of satisfaction out of making a smart par (or possibly a birdie), and I know I don't want to deal with the frustration of hitting a poor drive and making bogey or worse when the safe and smart play was obvious.

That said, I'd probably have a go at a few more short par 4s if some were designed to test your length as opposed to your accuracy and length. Remove the certain double bogey for a crooked shot at a heavily defended green on a short par 4, and I'll bring the driver out of the bag. I'd like to see one hole per course that fits that description -- a feel-good driveable par 4. I also think each course should have a couple of dangerous short par 4 where only the really good players or the dumb guys go for it.

[THuckaby2]

Rick - your dream hole exists - it tests strength and strength alone.

#15 at Monterey Pines GC, the former Naval Post-Graduate School Golf Course, in Monterey, CA.  251 yard par 4, with a bunker 10 yards long and about 40 yards wide, covering the entire fairway, beginning at about 225 off the tee and ending 5 yards short of the green... The risk going in the bunker isn't all that great - it's flat and easily escapable - and the green is big, wide and deep... such that this is just a question of whether you can make the carry or not.

Sad story - in match play against a VERY strong opponent last Saturday (he hit 3wood on the green), I failed to make the clearance with driver... it was into the wind.

But sounds fun for ya, doesn't it?

TH

[David Wigler]

Rick,

Have you been to Rustic Canyon yet?  They have three driveable par 4's.  #3 and #12 were both exactly as you descibed.  There was a huge bail out to the right, so it was only a test of distance with very little penalty for mistake.  #7 was a test of distance and accuracy.  A mistake turns an easy par into a double.  

I think Weiskopf/Morrish were the masters of the driveable par four and cannot think of a course they designed together that did not include one of these holes.

Shivas,

One of these days, you will come visit in Detroit.  We will go to Franklin Hills and I'll shoot you if you pull out a 5-iron on #13.  

[THuckaby2]

DW - great call re Rustic Canyon.

And Weiskopf continues the tradition of driveable par 4's in his own work.. there are two of them at the new "Desert" course at Cabo del Sol in Mexico that he did solo... or maybe one for me and two for you... one is really short and downhill and ego-building.  There is a bit of trouble right and a lot long though, so it doesn't meet Rick's definition... the other requires a big uphill hook that I know YOU could do but is beyond me!

TH

[Doug Wright]

I thought of another one--the 6th at Kapalua Plantation. Downhill, downwind, downgrain. Really fun to blast it over the big bunker in the center of the fairway and find out where it ends up!

All The Best,

[Pete_Pittock]

Tom Doak,
  A greater power than you designed PD#16 to be driveable, and I'm not talking Eli Calloway. At the Oregon Amateur most plays laid up to the 100 yd range, but a significant number of men and women hit it long enough to reach the green with the prevailing wind. Most were unsuccessful, and few birdied. A great match play hole near the end.
  Prestwick #16 also nominated for the list with good risk/reward criteria. #18 is driveable (tap in eagle) but doesn't present much challenge for bad shot.
  Will be on the Mornington Peninsula in October.

[Rick Shefchik]

Tom,

#15 at Monterey Pines sounds exactly like what I'm looking for.

David,

I have not been to Rustic Canyon yet. I'd love to play it some day.

The Wilds, a Weiskopf-Moorish design in the Twin Cities area, does have a driveable par. It's a flat 330- (or 295-)yard hole with a 190-yard forced carry over a wetland. There are bunkers up the left side, the fairway falls away to some thick rough and brush on the right, and the green is 62-yards from front to back, with a false right side. A drive that found its way all the way to a back hole location would really have to thread the needle -- but it's a fun hole to play.

[Geoff Shackelford]

David,
Thanks for citing those two holes at Rustic Canyon and for recognizing what we were going for, which was a little different from the norm and an attempt to make each of the three different in style. There has been criticism of 3 and 12 from good players who say they are too easy with not enough options, while I never hear complaints aout 7, which I figured good golfers would just despise! With regard to 3 and 12, I see their point in some respects, particularly with #3 where I feel the green size is a little too big, and thus, invites the drive perhaps a bit too easily without thought to laying up to the left or right side. But I'm still glad we errored on the big side, hard to fix a small one.  And also, I just don't know what to say to some good players who carry the ball 280-300 yards in the air. No one can design short 4's for that, can they? What does that do to the mere mortals??

But with #12, we really wanted people to have that feeling of letting go and just taking it at the green, no worries except the overcooked right to left shot. A par3 1/2 in some respects. Still, I have yet to see a golfer just play safely (intentionally or by accident) to the wide safe haven and make worse than par, which is the point, the green opens up from there and if you are into percentage plays, or your opponent tees off first into trouble, you are a fool not to take the safe route. On 12, I've seen a nice balance of birdies and easy bogies from people who tried to drive the green, and also a varied way that people made those scores. So it may seem like a one-dimensional hole at first, but hopefully it takes on many dimensions with local knowledge and memories of past play on the hole.

The short par-4 has plenty of different possibilities that should be explored more, but with the need to get to 7300 yards and the fear of holes being labeled "too easy," it's hard for architects to take chances. Also, they require a willingness to adjust them after play, which is a luxury architects are not often given these days (or in some cases, no one cares enough to make adjustments).  Few people remember that George Thomas altered #10 at Riviera a year after play and of course it took the hole from probably playing just a bit "too easy" to just right.
Geoff

[David Wigler]

Geoff,

Your explanation makes perfect sense.  Having flown in from Michigan, and not in a game involving gambling, I was certainly not going to lay up on any of them.  I am one of those "Can carry it 280" guys.  All three had different feels.  #3 was early in the round and begged to be given a shot.  I left #7 with one of my two doubles for the day and was kicking myself for getting greedy when I didn't need to (That written, it was one of my favorite holes on the course).  The only one I might have questioned whether it was too easy was #12.  You are correct though, If I put 7-iron, SW into play, I could not fathom anything but a 4.  In a match, that hole would dictate strategy.  

I think that part of Rustic's success is that it has holes that allow for heroic shots.  I played 3,7,12 even par (Birdie, double bogey, birdie).  I could have layed up on all three and made the same score but had nowhere near the fun of trying.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jamie Duffner,

The entire right side of the green is open to a draw from the tee.  The prevailing wind is at your back as well, rewarding a well struck tee shot with that flight pattern.

However, golfers are so long today, that I have seen a few players carry it directly to the green or run through the hump of rough just short of the right side of the green onto the putting surface.

Any drive that goes to the right of the spine, clears the bunkers and comes to rest in the fairway, is left with a wide open shot to the green, with a lob wedge or run-up shot.
Over cook the draw and the front bunker awaits, hit it straight and high rough awaits, but it is a short wide open shot to the green.

Those well hit drives with the prefered flight end up on the green.

Like # 1 at NGLA it's a great starting hole, it can be an easy birdie or par, but it certainly is a very disappointing bogey and puts a damper on the start of your round.  Like NGLA, the early holes at GCGC can produce good scoriing, sort of a reserve for what you'll encounter further into the round.  
But, a bogey, bogey start at GCGC and NGLA can be very depressing.

It's all about RISK/REWARD
The AGONY AND THE ECSTACY.

[SPDB]

The Creek #10.

[shane]

any thoughts on driveable finishing holes???

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

How did I miss that ?

Also:

# 1 at Cherry Hills
# 1 at Westchester
# 6 at Ridgewood center

[shane]

any thoughts on driveable finishing holes???

[shane]

any thoughts on driveable finishing holes???

[shane]

any thoughts on driveable finishing holes???

[SPDB]

Pat - how could you.

Shane - There is a very good drivable par 4 finishing hole at Carnegie Abbey. The tee shot is a diagonal carry over the beach and requires a slight draw. The wind (which can be  severe coming off the Narragansett) is often times in your face, which makes it difficult, but not impossible at 275 yards. i've played it with the wind at my back and gotten home with a 3-iron.

It's a great hole, but not necessarily one I would choose as the home hole. I think they have room behind the tee to create a longer option, with a more heroic carry to get home and more of a challenge if you opt not to.

In this pic, you can make out the tee, just to the left jutting out toward the water.

[Dannp]

# 14 at Shadow Glen ( KC)  260 from tips and green is about the size of a large SUV. Weiskopf/Morrish. I think they are the masters of this type of shot.. miss it, you are toast.

[Geoff Shackelford]

Shane,

Two driveable or very short finishers come to mind, but I saw both in the grow in stage so I don't know how reachable they are or how they play:

#18 at Pilgrim's Run by Mike DeVries (conceptually, really, really interesting)
#18 Talking Stick South by Coore and Crenshaw

[Dan Grossman]

Having only played Pac Dunes in the winter, I wouldn't have even realized that #16 was drivable.  That hole has always been 3 wood / wedge for me.  #6, however, I think is great fun trying to drive the green.  I'll never forget watching my ball climb all the way up the hill, but fall in the great bunker to the left while my playing partner's ball made the fringe.  The difference between the two shots was about 5 feet, I think!  

[Bill_McBride]

Toms Doak and Huckaby --- last summer our very own John D. Berhardt drove the 16th at Pacific Dunes, and I think even 2-putted!  We also concluded that driving the ball as close to the green as possible (downwind) was the best play, especially when the pin was in front on that narrow area between the bunker on the left and the grassy bank on the right.  Good hole!