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Patrick_Mucci

Driveable Par 4's
« on: July 28, 2002, 03:10:18 PM »
What are some of the best driveable par 4's you've played.

Several that come to mind are:

# 1, # 2 at NGLA
# 10 at Old Marsh
# 1 at GCGC
# 14, # 18 at Prestwick

All of them offer you a risk/reward decision on the tee.

I really like these holes when they are your first hole of the day, and you're fresh from the practice tee.

What are your favorites, and why ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2002, 03:21:36 PM »
10W at Royal Melbourne, 305y from the tips.  

Slight dogleg left, with a massive, deep bunker on the inside of the dogleg about 30m short of the green.  With the right wind, its definately hittable (eg. Presidents Cup), but if you miscue, bunkers and rough await.

If you choose to take the conservative line with a 3-wood or iron, the tiny green ensures plenty of interest for the second shot, with no guarantee of par, even from only 40-50m away.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2002, 03:24:43 PM »
Speaking of Cruden Bay in other threads...I have to say I really like #3 at Cruden....its very easy to go thru the green and alot of times you may never find the ball again because of blind shot...plus the various mounds causing the ball to spray around the green...then you got a great par 3 after that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JohnV

Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2002, 03:26:11 PM »
Some personal favorites:
#9 at Broken Top

#17 at Pumpkin Ridge - Ghost Creek  I've seen pros score everywhere from 2 to 8 on this one.

#18 at The Old Course

#5 at Cuscowilla

#15 at TPC River Highlands.  I haven't played this one, but it always seem to be an exciting hole when the pros play it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2002, 03:47:12 PM »
Nine at Blackwolf Run.  Many do not think that the green is really drivable, but last time I was there, 3 of 4 were on or over.

I have not played Fenway, but doesn't it offer the perfect solution Pat, a short opener?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2002, 04:34:18 PM »
Patrick,
 From what I've read of your descriptions of NGLA #1 I wouldn't think of it as a drivable par 4. With such a severe green aren't there places you could leave a drive near the green but be worse off than back down the fairway with a wedge? How do you generally play the hole (of course varying conditions dictate that, but in general)?

I played a course recently with drivable par 4's, but found 2 of the three of them to be lacking in the gut check department. Off the tee there just wasn't enough trouble out there to make me think of anything but driver (and I am wild off the tee as anyone who has seen me play can attest). Isn't the risk of being severely punished for a wayward drive one of the hallmarks of a short par 4?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2002, 05:49:13 PM »
#9 at Blackwolf Run - River
#17 at the Golf Club in Columbus
# ?  at Loch Lomond


are some of the best I've seen.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2002, 06:48:21 PM »
Shivas,
Not highly offended.

The very back tees are 340 or so, I was not playing them.  I was playing with three good players, the last time I played the course.  We gave it a poke, obviously we were playing for fun, but I disagree having done it that it was a fool's play.  Worst case was a greenside bunker shot or chip, best was on the green.  I think the Blues are around 315, but they must have been playing up for me to have a chance.  :)

Regards

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2002, 07:08:14 PM »
Ed Getka,

Over the years I've found that I'm most comfortable with trying to drive the green.  There are several reasons for this.

# 1  I've just come from the range after hitting my standard
       pre round routine of golf balls, so my timing is fairly good.

# 2  The wind has usually been at my back or right to left,
       the typical pattern of my driver.

# 3  I'm uncomfortable with the shot from the center to right
      side of the fairway that is the result of a 2-iron or 3-wood
       off the tee.

# 4  The shot from the center to left center to left rough with
       the driver has a full unobstructed view of the green.

# 5  A successful drive leaves me a variety of shots to play to
       the pin, or to the location I choose.  The 2-iron or
       3-wood narrows my selection considerably.

# 6  Perhaps the most compelling reason is, I really feel good
       about the shot and the way the hole sets up for me.
       It just feels comfortable and natural.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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CB

Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2002, 07:38:46 PM »
Here are a few to chew on:
#12 St. Andrews (Old)
#16 Royal County Down
#10 Merion (East)
#10 Riviera
#3 Cruden Bay
#18 Prestwick
#18 North Berwick (West)--my personal favorite (mini version of St. Andrews 18th, with a better green)
#15 Palmetto GC--my 2nd favorite  (298 blind up, over, and down a hill with the green raised sharply in front and running away from you)
#16 Kebo Valley
#5 Tobacco Road
#1 Eastmoreland, Portland, OR
#1 Oak Hollow, High Point, NC
#9 Circle C Ranch, Austin, TX
#12 Barton Creek (Fazio Foothills), Austin, TX
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2002, 07:59:06 PM »
CB,

Thanks,

I had forgotten some that I had played, namely:
 
# 18 at North Berwick
# 10 at Riviera
# 10 at Merion
#  9, 10, 12 at St. Andrews, with wind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jamie_Duffner

Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2002, 08:50:31 PM »
Pat - is 1 at GC driveable?  Isn't that a very tiny opening on the right side, too small to call it driveable?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2002, 08:57:47 PM »
How about No. 18 at Quechee in Vermont.  

Also couldn't N0.8 at Merion East be driveable by the really big hitters.

Could 11 at Merion East with a very lucky shot that cleared the creek be drivable?  Isn't this risk reward?

Cheers,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2002, 10:51:16 PM »
#6 and #16 at Pacific Dunes
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom Doak

Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2002, 02:27:00 AM »
Peter:

I never really intended the 16th at Pacific Dunes to be driveable, although I've seen Tim Hval drive it through the green into the "Josh Pit" in back.  My favorite from my own work (so far) is the 6th at Apache Stronghold.

I just played a great driveable par 4 with Mike Clayton today -- the future 16th hole on the West course at St. Andrews Beach.  It'll be a while before it's ready to go, though, I'm afraid.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2002, 02:33:37 AM »
Tom,

Is 16 the hole with the green set where all the trees and scrub are now?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2002, 06:13:23 AM »
In no specific order,

#9 at Blackwolf Run
#10 at Riviera
#9 at Cypress Point
#5 at Cuscowilla
#4 at Troon Golf and Country Club
#17 at Double Eagle
#11 at Great Waters (8 attempts - 7 in the water, 1 to 18 inches)
#18 at Inverness (A heroic shot if ever there was one)
#13 at Franklin Hills (Maybe the best driveable par 4 Ross ever designed.

If pushed to identify which one I like best, I might say 13 at Franklin, but it would be very close.

The driveable par four and the heroic (Over 210 with a carry) par three are my two favorite holes in golf.  Great thread.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2002, 07:03:10 AM »
Dave Miller,

#8 & #11 at Merion are not driveable from the back tees.

Someone might be able to hit it in the front bunker on #8, but that's about it.  It is hard enough to hit that green with a wedge, there is NO way to do it with a driver.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2002, 07:04:19 AM »
It's the single startegic design element that I really enjoy. If I play a course w/out one, it automatically drops a notch if it's not there. It appears that the feature is becoming much more popular.

#7 & 8 Sand Hills
#15 World Woods Pine Barrens
#14 Links @ Hiawatha Landing (Silva)
#1 TPC River Highlands
#5 Cobblestone Creek (Hurdzan)

Of these, I really like Pine Barrens hole w/ the dual fairway.

The two things that can make or break a great drivable par 4 is location in the round. Tooearly your not ready for it. Later in the round it can make such a swing in a match.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Integrity in the moment of choice

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2002, 07:30:31 AM »
I'll second #6 at Pacific Dunes and #5 at Tobacco Road.

How about a formerly driveable par4, #6 at LACC-North?  Of course, I didn't play it when it was driveable.  Who has?  When did the trees grow up enough to block the shot to the green?

What about #16 at Cypress?   ;D  Some people call that a driveable par 4.  Haven't played it, though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2002, 08:23:26 AM »
Shivas,
I agree that not many would go after it in tournament play, but if you play the course once or twice a year, why not?  The white tee do not offer the best angle, but if you are playing the white tees, 295 or so, is probably not realistic.

If score is the main concern, there is a lot of risk there, but I will always try it.  The front bunker is plenty manageable and the opening on the right side of the bunker (and the left) is also quite reasonable.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2002, 08:28:01 AM »
Interesting Tom Doak would say #16 at Pacific Dunes wasn't intended to be driven... each time I played it it was so down wind and so firm and fast that trying to drive it was really the ONLY play - layup to fat part of fairway would be 5iron at most... I'm not a big hitter, nor were the guys with me, but our last round there I put it in the back bunker and one of my friends knocked it 3 feet away (and MISSED the eagle putt, much to our chortling)...

In the summer wind the ball just goes and goes and goes and it's really quite thrilling to watch it take those humps and valleys and then you're not sure where it is until you get closer to the green.. the area short right is bad too, but playable, so whilst left is indeed dead, it makes the risk a good one....

I find 16 to be way more of a driveable play than 6.  Can't see ever driving 6 and holding the green... you'd have to hit a hard hook and get a really lucky bounce.  That's INTO the summer wind also....

Interesting.

No one mentioned #8 at Cruden Bay, the hole on the cover of Confidential Guide.  OK, it's only 250 or so from the tees I played, and shorter than that from normal guest tees, but the card calls it a par 4 and the two I made there is an eagle in my book and I am sticking to it!  Very fun hole into natural ampitheater.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2002, 08:36:30 AM »
Shivas,

"I didn't come all this way to lay up."  Living in Chicago, you may not see #9 as a drivable par four because you are only a 2 hour drive from your next chance to play it.  For the rest of us, Blackwolf Run is a destination.  I asked my caddy at #16 at Cypress, what the smart play was.  He said 7-iron, SW.  You eliminate anything worse than a four.  He also said anyone residing east of the Colorado river is not allowed to lay up and the only club he would hand me is 3-iron, 3-wood, or driver.

#9 cuts back straight at the tee box.  The 300+ distance is going well out of your way to cover the middle of the fairway.  The distance measurement is probably less 270 as the crow flies.  I have played the hole twice.  1 hit the green for a 2-putt birdie.  1 over cut the green and made an ugly 6.  Would I have played one stroke better safe? Probably, but heroic par 4's deserve heroic shots.  I have seen your length.  Next time, try it.  I will bet you make it.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2002, 08:39:03 AM »
JohnF, I don't think #8 at SH's can be reached from the back tee. How about #15 at Wild Horse.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Driveable Par 4's
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2002, 08:41:56 AM »
I'm with Brad - from the up tee 8 at Sand Hills is driveable most definitely but not from the back - just another reason Sand Hills is like NGLA from the ups, Shinnecock from the backs!  7 at Sand Hills belongs in this conversation from either tee, it's just dammit I don't have the hook required to get the ball up that hill!

And 15 Wild Horse is a great call.. risk/reward, fun.

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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