What Hole is This? (Lakeside #13 in LA by Behr)

[Tim Gavrich]

The two bunkers short-left of the green look like they're set back a bit from the putting surface...has the green shrunk much since construction?

The only green I've played to that resembles that one in any way is the amusing 4th hole at Sewanee GC, but even so, that green is not at an angle.  Cool stuff.

[James Bennett]

Sean,

You are correct.  Mid-Pines 12th green is angled in the opposite direction (front left to back right).  It is indeed an unusually narrow green for Ross.  Interesting that it and the subject hole are nice juxtapositions that fit nicely with the respective hole yardages.  The subject tempts the big hitter to drive the green with a dicey pitch if he's (or she's for Shivas) short or left while the Mid-Pines hole challenges the golfer to cut the corner on an otherwise extremely wide fairway to yield the best angle in.  The safe or unobservant driver of the ball will be left with a tough angle - even for a short iron approach.  

Like the 4th at Spyglass these holes place a premium on accuracy, first with the tee ball, then with a short pitch.  Classic and easy architecture that works anywhere but it too rarely employed.  

Mike

Here is an aerial of #12 at Mid-Pines (I hope I picked out the right hole off Google).  The green is a little bigger than Lakeside, and is orientated in the other direction (as Mike says) but it is a unique green.  Sorry about the cloud - first time I have encountered cloud on Google.


And here is an aerial of Riviera #10.  You can see the mirror image of Lakeside #13 green, but with a tree-free and wide fairway.  Actually, Riviera #10 seems to be a fraction bigger than Lakeside's #13 green, which is saying something about Lakeside's green.  Riviera #10 green does play smaller because of the fall off from the fronting bunkers onto the green though.


I'll have to look up Pacific Dunes #16 Michael R.

Ryan Farrow

Lakside was built in 1924, and the green in Shackleford's book was washed away in 1938.  I believe that green is situated on the other side of the (now) concrete drainage creek that runs on one side of the course, separating it from Universal Studios.  Yes, the hill in the Golden Age photo behind the old #13 green is (IMO) Universal Studios.  Play was from the other side of the creek, where the course still is today.  I think the current #12 may also have played across the creek.  However, the nines ghave been reversed (current #9 which is a long par 3 used to be a short par 4 #18 from back and left of the current tee, I think).  I have no precise knowledge of where the old #13 green actually was.

[Matt_Cohn]

Caught a few minutes of Lakeside on an old "Celebrity Golf" episode on the Golf Channel. Sam Snead and Dean Martin. (Why not Phil Mickelson and Justin Timberlake?)

I missed this par-4 by a few minutes, but I caught the drop shot par-3 which played only 90(!) yards that day. How long is the hole now?

[James Bennett]

Matt

that hole is #15A.  It runs perpendicular to #15.  Both are par 3's.  15 plays through a valley, perhaps 170 yards (I didn't play it, we had 15A that day) whereas 15A plays across the valley, from the top of a hill to the top of another hill.  A very precise, shallow target to play to.  Worth a thread of its own.

Yes, it is less than 100 yards, and if you play it you will remember it.

James B

[John Moore II]

James--yes that was #12 at Mid Pines. The fairway bunker you can see on the left side of the fairway is more or less out of play today. The bunker if I recall is rather deep guarding the green. And the green slopes from back to front.

[archie_struthers]

 

Player this little devil in the Kelly Cup last year....it's a mind bender.  Even bombers have to think carefully here...lots of jail ....but.........LOL


The hole preceding ii another short nasty, with a layup to the top of a ridge with a green at the bottom of the hollow. Come to think of it, 11,12,13  Lakeside's version of Amen Corner all challenge you to play positional golf. Definitely unique stuff here.

But in spite of keeping the driver in the bag, it's a fun trio . Lots of birdies...and doubles.

[TEPaul]

The back of Riviera's 10th green is only about seven steps wide.

[Michael Robin]

James & Ryan -

My understanding is that the current 4th hole which use to be #13 played across the river to the now Universal Studios property. The tee shot on the then 14th was also on the diagonal back across the wash to the fairway. Those to my knowledge were the only holes across the wash. Also, I believe that the 70 yd par 3 15th is the original Behr design and that the longer hole was added much later. I love the little hole and the while the longer hole is a solid one-shotter, it's not as fresh as the little devil. Geoff Shack, can you shed light on any of this?

Tom -

The neck in the back middle portion of the 10th green at Riviera is 7 paces wide. The actual area at the back of the green is a little larger.

[David Panzarasa]

I believe there are some greens like this at Wilshire in LA. Another little gem

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Mike, Geoff knows more than I, but I think you too are going on that painted routing of the original course, one of which is located in the banquet room of the clubhouse.  It shows the original course as you describe it in your post.  

Yes David, I think it is 15th at Wilshire that is an exacting little par 4, and the par 3 7th, not to mention the 10th in front of the clubhouse.

[Michael Robin]

No Lynn, I'm going by the painting that's hanging in the Honeybaked Ham down the street.

By the way, I do think that they should flip the nines, only use the short green at 15 and then make the current 9th its original driveable par 4 finisher. These were all very different and cool golf ideas that would still be so today.

[James Bennett]

Michael

... and undertake those mowing suggestions you mentioned earlier.  Lakeside struck me as a real 'players' club where they enjoy competitive golf.  The land had far more movement in it than I expected to see.  Some shorter grass will only expose the movement to the players, creating a different but enjoyable challenge.

I didn't realise that I actually played '15' when I thought I was playing '15A'.  That was a cool, memorable hole.

If you go by the Honeybaked Ham one day with a camera, any chance of a pic of the old painting.  That pic coupled with today's Google aerial would make a good thread.

James B

[James Bennett]

Here is Lakeside with the holes numbered.  There is also a Scott Burroughs aerial of the day elsewhere on GCA, but I thought numbered holes would help here.  I had to use a very small font to get the hole numbers on the greens.  It is amazing, that small green on #13 is actually on of the 'least small' greens at Lakeside.  Apparently, the average size is currently 2600 sq feet per green (although I expect they were perhaps at least 3,000 sq feet before being surrounded by long grass between green edges and bunkers).

You will see #4 (old #13) on the lower boundary, with Universal Studios across the channel.  That apparently is the hole which crossed the creek, until being washed away in 1938 (built in 1924).  Then the current #5 played back across the creek to the course.

You can also see the current #9 tee just behind #8 green, and the possibility of the old short par 4 when it was #18, with a tee back and above the current #8 green.

I have shown the short #15 green, with play from below and up to the right on the aerial.  The longer #15a plays from left to right.

I have also included '#19' as the members do play up a dew path to the practice green.  If you do play this hole, have a putter with a very stout shaft and a bit of loft - it is a real welt to get to the green.  Not sure if any have finished in the clubhouse thought!

And, yes, the course is wall-to-wall green (well, it was in March 2007) despite the limited LA rainfall.



James B

[David Stamm]

BTW, Damian tells me that at one time, the whole course had some dunes similar to CP between most fairways. At least, I think he told me that, but either he or me may not have been sober when he told me!

Jeff, Damian is correct. TN has shown me old photo's in the past and they looked like they were something else. Big man made sand dunes that if I remember right were washed away during the flood that damaged alot of the courses in So Cal.

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