Colt's site visits while at PV

[David Stamm]

I was rereading Warner Shelley's club history on Pine Valley and I noticed something that I hadn't before. He states that in Crump's obituary (he doesn't cite the exact press source) that Colt was in this country at the time of PV's planning "having coming to work on the Merion and Seaview courses."


Has anyone ever heard of this before? Forgive me if this has been discussed and put to rest but I stink at using the search engine on this site. Perhaps Joe Bausch, Geoffrey Walsh and Mike Cirba might have seen the mentioned obituary in their Cobb's Creek research. Thanks.

[TEPaul]

"Has anyone ever heard of this before?"

David:

Sure. That trip of Colt's referred to was his 1913 tour over here where he saw a lot of clubs including the ones you mentioned, and Pine Valley. That trip was the only time he was there.

I understand from the real Colt experts that Colt may've come back across the Atlantic in 1914 which I was not aware of for a long time but I'm not sure where he was, but probably the Midwest. He did not go back to Pine Valley as far as anything and everything I've ever known. But if somehow he did I would sure like to see it documented because that would really change some things in my opinion.

One of the reasons it's relatively easy to track Colt's contribution to Pine Valley is he was only there once and it's not that hard to track what was basically done before he got there and what was done by others later after he left. That makes for a much more understandable timeline as to his contributions compared to if he'd been there a number of times over the years.

[David Stamm]

Tom, thanks. Just to clarify, I just hadn't heard of Colt "working on Merion and Seaview."  

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom P.,

Colt made two trips to Canada to design Toronto GC and Hamilton G&CC. The first trip, I believe was around 1910. The second a couple years later.

It must have been the second trip when he visited Pine Valley? I'm not sure. Perhaps somene, like Paul Turner, knows.

Interesting history.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tom P.,

Colt made two trips to Canada to design Toronto GC and Hamilton G&CC. The first trip, I believe was around 1910. The second a couple years later.

It must have been the second trip when he visited Pine Valley? I'm not sure. Perhaps somene, like Paul Turner, knows.

Interesting history.

Jeff,

I was under the impression that Colt's visits to Canada were in April 1911 (Toronto) and May 1914 (Hamilton). Either way, these wouldn't fit in with his visit to Pine Valley in May 1913.

That said, Tom MacWood has him visiting Hamilton and Pine Valley on the same trip in his Portrait of George Crump opinion piece...

I could actually do with some more clarification on this myself as I've had reason to reference it recently...

Ally

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ally,

Tom MacWood advises me Colt came to North America three times: 1911 (Toronto GC), 1913 and 1914 (Hamilton G&CC).

[TEPaul]

It seems almost certain that Colt came to America or North America three times. For the longest time I thought he never returned after the trip that included the May/June 1913 visit to Pine Valley, but now it seems certain he came again to America in 1914 (that apparently was his third and last trip over here) but I don't think he ever returned to PV after that single visit in the end of May/beginning of June 1913.

Apparently when Colt did come to Pine Valley he had been in Canada on that trip because Tillinghast recorded that in one of his articles of that time.

One seemingly minor point I sure would like to find out from one of the Colt experts is when he left North America during that 1913 visit, or when he can accurately be put back in England in the latter half of 1913.

The reason I ask that is that Colt PV whole course layout ("Scheme") we bought off of Ebay has a date on the bottom of it that says July 1913. If Colt was back in England in July 1913 I'd sure like to know about it because it very well may have an effect on who drew that PV map. Of course Colt certainly could've drawn it in England if he was there in July 1913 and mailed it back to Pine Valley. It appears that Crump must have mailed Colt that album of Pine Valley in the end of 1913 or the beginning of 1914. I also wonder how that particular album found its way to the USGA Museum and Library but they could probably tell me that.

[Jeff_Mingay]

MacWood tells me, too, he's going to update his Crump essay in the near future, to include new info. and the story surrounding Mr. Verdant Greene.

[Joe Bausch]

David, just today I was doing more research on Cobb's Creek at Temple University's Urban Archive and I found a very long article on Pine Valley dated March 22, 1925 by J.E. Ford in The North American (I think this was/is the Evening Bulletin).  It is a photocopy of the article that seems to have been tattered (asterisks where something isn't clear).  Here is the paragraph that relates to your post:

The design of the course required time.  Harry S. Colt, an ****** golf architect of reputation, was visiting in the country inspecting the courses at Merion and Seaview.  He was persuaded by Crump to look over Pine Valley.  He visited the course a month after the charter was granted and was amazed at the possibilities of the spo*.

[wsmorrison]

I was surprised to go back and read Shelley's account stating that Colt ...was in this country at the time of Pine Valley's planning, having come to work on the Merion and Seaview courses.  

I didn't think Colt did any work at either Merion or Seaview.  At the time of their construction, Merion, Pine Valley, Seaview and Sunnybrook were all being visited by architects.  There was a lot of revolutionary things going on in the area including grassing (vegetative planting of bent), Taylor green construction (Sunnybrook and Pine Valley) and golf course construction (Seaview was built on what was a swamp, which is one reason the project was the most expensive in its day).  I suspected he simply stopped by to see what was happening at these Philadelphia area courses.

Joe's discovery of a contemporary account seems to indicate that Shelley's later version may not be accurate.

[David Stamm]

David, just today I was doing more research on Cobb's Creek at Temple University's Urban Archive and I found a very long article on Pine Valley dated March 22, 1925 by J.E. Ford in The North American (I think this was/is the Evening Bulletin).  It is a photocopy of the article that seems to have been tattered (asterisks where something isn't clear).  Here is the paragraph that relates to your post:

The design of the course required time.  Harry S. Colt, an ****** golf architect of reputation, was visiting in the country inspecting the courses at Merion and Seaview.  He was persuaded by Crump to look over Pine Valley.  He visited the course a month after the charter was granted and was amazed at the possibilities of the spo*.

Thanks Joe. If this was the source that Shelley used, it would answer the mis-use of the word "working", either by Shelley himself or the press source.

[Mike_Cirba]

MacWood tells me, too, he's going to update his Crump essay in the near future, to include new info. and the story surrounding Mr. Verdant Greene.

This should be really, really good.

[Ian Andrew]

Colt in Canada

Colt was at Toronto Golf Club on May 12, 1913 to make his final site visit - I have the site directions which are dated.

The date on the plan in the clubhouse is May 1911.

Colt worked with Royal Montreal - it's detailed in the Club History and I have posted it here under Royal Montreal - I can not search this site- so I leave that to smarter people.

Colt was here at Hamilton in 1914 - from Canadian Golfer - October profile on the opening of Hamilton Links "When Colt came out in 1914 to lay out the Ancaster course...." The superintendent who built the course - Mr Sutherland - was a very well respected man who was in charge of every aspect of building the course. He ended up designing and building others after that.

Tom has found a few new tidbits - but it's not my place to share

[Tony_Muldoon]

The St Georges Hill History has Colt playing in a match for the Oxford and Cambridge Golfing Society against professsionals on opening day.   He and NF Hunter (Sunningdale?) lost to Duncan & Herd 5&4.  Alison also played in the match.


Work had started in the previous year clearing trees.  Carters seed placed an advert saying "Sewn October 3rd 1912. Opened October 2nd 1913."

[TEPaul]

Tony:

Do you know the date of that match of Colt's? What I'd like to know is when Colt sailed for home in 1913 or even what other courses he saw over here around June (or even July) 1913.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

In the June 1913 issue of GOLF Magazine, in the column titled "Our Cihcago Letter" which was written by Chick Evans, He wrote, "Every result has a cause; so we must mention that Mr. H.S. Colt, the great English architect, has been with us lately and has left a deep impression. He spent nearly two weeks visiting all our larger courses, and it is easy to tell what he has suggested might be dobne to them to their advantage... A fine new club called The Old Elm Golf Club has just been formed; its membership is weaklthy and influential and its course is up on the North Shore. I think Mr. Colt came here especially to plan its construction and the superintendence of the work is to be done by Donald Ross. Nothing will be spared to make this the finest course in North America..."

It would appear that this visit occurred in March/April (?) at the latest due to necessary lead time for producing the June issue.

What I think is most interesting is Evans belief that the primary purpose for his trip, at least to Chicago, was the Old Elm project. Also, it would be interesting to find out the other clubs he veisited and the work that he recommended doing at them and to find out if it was ever done. It may end up that Mr. Colt had  agreater impact on Chicago golf than has been heretofore known...

[TEPaul]

"it may end up that Mr. Colt had  agreater impact on Chicago golf than has been heretofore known..."


Could be, Phil, but as you and I know there's only one way to know for sure.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Wouldn't it be great if someone produced a Colt time line like that of MacKenzie by Nick Leefe and Sean Tully?

[Sean_Tully]

Wouldn't it be great if someone produced a Colt time line like that of MacKenzie by Nick Leefe and Sean Tully?

Don't forget Neil Crafter, too! I owe him that one.

David,

Sorry I did not get back to you. Just too damn busy with the Mackenzie timeline and spending time with my girls. I have nothing to add to what you have. I do have some articles and such that he wrote and some of his advertisements etc., but nothing specific to Merion and Seaview.

Tully

[David Stamm]

Wouldn't it be great if someone produced a Colt time line like that of MacKenzie by Nick Leefe and Sean Tully?

 

David,

Sorry I did not get back to you. Just too damn busy with the Mackenzie timeline and spending time with my girls. I have nothing to add to what you have. I do have some articles and such that he wrote and some of his advertisements etc., but nothing specific to Merion and Seaview.

Tully

No worries, Sean. MacK and family ALWAYS comes first!

[Tyler Kearns]

Colt in Canada

Colt was at Toronto Golf Club on May 12, 1913 to make his final site visit - I have the site directions which are dated.

The date on the plan in the clubhouse is May 1911.

Colt worked with Royal Montreal - it's detailed in the Club History and I have posted it here under Royal Montreal - I can not search this site- so I leave that to smarter people.

Colt was here at Hamilton in 1914 - from Canadian Golfer - October profile on the opening of Hamilton Links "When Colt came out in 1914 to lay out the Ancaster course...." The superintendent who built the course - Mr Sutherland - was a very well respected man who was in charge of every aspect of building the course. He ended up designing and building others after that.

Tom has found a few new tidbits - but it's not my place to share

According to the Royal Montreal Club history, on November 12, 1912, the club decided they needed to hire a qualified golf architect to inspect their course and offer suggestion for improvement. Colt submitted a report & looked at 3 new properties for the club. The history does not mention when this took place, but most likely around the time he was in Toronto (May, 1913).

TK

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tyler,

Tom MacWood tells me Colt made a visit to Royal Ottawa as well, with regard to some redesign work there. I think Tom's still trying to confirm the date of that particular visit though. Visiting Montreal during the same trip makes sense.

[TEPaul]

What I would like to know is what the basic planning or modus operandi was of some of those architects who traveled across oceans in the old days to do architectural work.

This would include the likes of Colt, Alison, Fowler etc who worked over here sometimes but never lived over here or stayed long. It would also include a guy like Maxwell over here.

I wonder if they tried to have a full itinerary before they left home or whether they just had a couple of projects planned from the other side but were always confident they could pick up on a number of things just by on-the-spot networking and word-of-mouth once they hit a town or region.

From what I can gather from some club records from back then and later---eg Perry Maxwell, even RTJ---once those guys got to a town a lot of clubs heard about it and got in touch with them right then and there and they could pretty much always count on things like that.

I wish the hell one of the members of my club hadn't heard RTJ was over at Merion one time in the 1960s!  

[Mark Bourgeois]

English Golfer Arrives Here on Way to Canada

"H. S. Colt, for 12 years secretary of Sunningdale Golf Club, England, and a recognized authority on golf matters, arrived here today on the Carmania from Liverpool, with Mrs. Colt, on his way to Hamilton, Ont., Canada, where he is to lay out a golf course for the Country Club of that place.  He may do similar work for clubs in the United States.

"Mr. Colt has been engaged in golf course construction for seven years in England.

"While at St. Georges Golf Club, Sandwich, Eng., Mr. Colt met Francis Ouimet, the national open champion.  Mr. Colt says that Mr. Ouimet has a good chance of winning in England."

Christian Science Monitor, 23 April 1914, pg 18

[Tony_Muldoon]

"Mr. Colt has been engaged in golf course construction for seven years in England.


Christian Science Monitor, 23 April 1914, pg 18

Interesting. Same year he met MacKenzie?  There's a lot we dont know.