Friar's Head Pictures

[Ian Andrew]

This is right behind that green.

If the trees come out - the green is unlikely to remain there. Erosion and wind deposition would both cause major problems.

[TEPaul]

"I would classify it as "Unique" along with Friars Head. You can't call the above parkland. How do you classify Merion? By the way since you grew up there I disqualify all your views of PR. You don't appreciate it enough!"

MikeS:

Funny you should ask about what to classify Merion. I had that very conversation just yesterday with Merion's ultra good superintendent. I said its style was "unique" and he said it was "one of a kind". I think both describe it pretty well. Luckily he tends toward the position of less trees which is appropriate for the way that land was before the course.

The important thing for some of these golf courses is to not try to make them fit into some particular "style" if they aren't that and never were. Some of the definitions of these various styles in golf architecture are probably too inexact or misunderstood anyway.

One of my real favorites in the "style" category is The Creek because it has three separate areas that are just so distinct from one another and the best part is their look and style was that way before the golf course. Their inclination may've been to homogenize those three areas into a more similar look and style but I believe we've now convinced them to actually enhance those areas to be as distinct from one another in look and style as they were before the course. I believe now they've really gotten into that idea.

Matter of fact, in their "seaside" section that once had a lot of rough sandy area they realize to return it to that to a decent degree does take some dedicated management and it seems like the one they've turned to for advice and counsel is none other than Friars Head who, in my opinion, may be at the cutting edge of that kind of thing today. Bill Jones, Friars excellent super's former club was The Creek.

As for Piping Rock I think I do appreciate it. They've done some wonderful things with that course since I left there decades ago but Piping also has a really good long time super. Back then, like most of those courses in those days things got pretty benign and neglected. Nobody back then thought about any of this stuff although back then Piping and Garden City had Mel Lucas and/or his father, and for a time at the same time and certainly Mel Lucas is really into this stuff.

Matter of fact, a pretty solid core of the superintendents on and around Long Island may be some of the best and most interesting in America.

[BCrosby]

From what I could tell Friars Head fit into its native terrain about as well as any course I know.

We can argue about the maintainability of some of C&C's architectural features. Or you might not like this hole or that.

But no one ought to have a serious beef about its "naturalism".

Bob

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Kyle,
 The problem with the tree removal behind the #15th green at FH is that the dunes behind the green would cover that green in just a couple years. When I was helping build the course, the great big dune that is to the right of the green, the same on that #16 tee sits on, was already moving several feet a year. The instant gradification of the view would be a nitemare in the end.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony,

I can imagine that you are right on that.  In all honesty between the two images I like the way it stands right now more.  I wish I had even that view to look at from time to time.  I was merely referring that I through the small gap between the trees to show more of the blue behind looked odd to me.


For those who have played, how do the greens stack up against others that have been built by C&C?

[TEPaul]

Bob:

There is no question at all of naturalism at Friars. The interesting thing about that pre-course site is how complex the dune/ridge area was to even figure out how to route holes in it without changing things too much combined with how flat and bland the rest of the topography was before the course. One area basically had way too much going on and the rest really didn't have anything at all going for it naturally.

How Coore and Crenshaw and The Boys dealt with that natural distinction and juxtaposition is really remarkable in my opinion.

And those sandy wasty areas are interesting. If they just left them alone for some years or a decade or so it's interesting to imagine what they'd look like. I think Friars may be at the cutting edge today of figuring out how to "hold" a natural sandy/wasty/scruffy look in those areas into the future.

I think one recent and modern technological factor works really well to serve this purpose and that's the ease of digital photography today. Basically, I think it's almost impossible to take too many photos of a golf course at any point in time.

[Kirk Gill]

The pictures I've seen of the dunes holes at Friar's Head kind of remind me of pictures I've seen of Cypress Point when it first opened - the rugged natural dunes and sandy surrounds. Is it possible in the future that FH will go the way of CP, and tame these extremely natural features for maintenance or other reasons?

[BCrosby]

"I think Friars may be at the cutting edge today of figuring out how to "hold" a natural sandy/wasty/scruffy look in those areas into the future."

That's going to be interesting to watch. I hope they succeed, but I also hope that success does not require huge maintenance budgets. Not be cause FH couldn't afford it. They clearly can.

But because I would like to see the C&C style become more influential, even at courses with more modest means.

Bob  

[TEPaul]

"Is it possible in the future that FH will go the way of CP, and tame these extremely natural features for maintenance or other reasons?"

Kirk:

It has always been my understanding that is precisely what FH would like to prevent in the future---eg the vegetating over of those scubby/sandy/wasty areas as happened over time at CPC and most every other course with those kinds of areas. That's why I said I think FH is at the cutting edge today of figuring out how to "hold" that look into the future. At least it's been my understanding that's what they'd like to do and either are or are looking into the methods and maintenance practices to do it.

[TEPaul]

"but I also hope that success does not require huge maintenance budgets."

Bob:

Me too. I doubt they're intending to be particularly secretive about it so maybe they wouldn't mind talking about it. Dealing with The Creek maybe I'll find out anyway. I hope it's just sort of like a matter of taking something in there maybe once a year or so like in the fall and just taking out the year's accumuated "vegetating over" less the areas of vegetation you want to remain.

I guess another consideration might be what to do if things get too dry---eg do you need to get some water in there on those sandy areas where you wouldn't need to do that if they were a lot more vegetated over?

I think at this point we have found that if things get too dry maintenance needs to get water on even highly maintained sand bunker surfaces or their playability might really change to far more fried eggs.

[John Moore II]

While I know this has been answered here all ready, to those who think the trees should go, they are natural just like they are in that setting. Anywhere you go on barrier islands like Long  Island or the NC Outer Banks where I am from originally, you find large forests of dense low growing trees, both evergreen and hardwood. To remove them from there would completely destroy the land that the course is situated on. The course would disappear in short order due to wind and water errosion.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I understand the team had to deal in real-world constraints.  I am not used to seeing scrub bunkers right next to a thick cover of Quercus.  The transition is more compressed than what I am used to seeing.

Prior to construction, was this natural valley densely forested or scrub land as in the foreground of the picture? Was it really a fresh, green breast of the New World?

Mark

[John Moore II]

Mark--based on living in a place such as this, I would say that yes, the trees were growing very dense in these areas and that they were not transplanted into the area. Transplanting trees into this environment would not work anyway. Trees would not last long in sandy, salty soil with high winds if they have not been there for a long time.

[TEPaul]

"Prior to construction, was this natural valley densely forested or scrub land as in the foreground of the picture?"

Mark:

It was scrubby just like in the foreground. It was just a natural hole corridor there just the way it is now, there were no trees in that area.

Basically, you can't believe how much that hole looks like the way it was pre-construction. The only real difference is there was one really huge mound right around the area where the fairway starts on the left.

[Mike Sweeney]

"Prior to construction, was this natural valley densely forested or scrub land as in the foreground of the picture?"

Mark:

It was scrubby just like in the foreground. It was just a natural hole corridor there just the way it is now, there were no trees in that area.

Basically, you can't believe how much that hole looks like the way it was pre-construction. The only real difference is there was one really huge mound right around the area where the fairway starts on the left.

http://www.georgesmay-casehistories.com/talmage_son.html

[TEPaul]

MikeS:

You know some years ago I think before FH went into construction and when this website had no registration I got a message from a lady from the Talmadges (I think it was Ellen). She included her tel # so I called her up and asked her what was on her mind.

She said she just wanted to say that the crew that was out there then was just so nice and like a total Godsend to whatever it was they'd been through before that.

Of course she was referring to Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw and The Boys and KenB and the whole operation that was in place to do the course.

I thought that was a pretty cool thing to hear right out of the blue like that.

[Mike Sweeney]

You know some years ago I think before FH went into construction and when this website had no registration I got a message from a lady from the Talmadges (I think it was Ellen). She included her tel # so I called her up and asked her what was on her mind.

She said she just wanted to say that the crew that was out there then was just so nice and like a total Godsend to whatever it was they'd been through before that.

Tom,

I was intoduced to Mr Talmadge through their family lawyer when they were still contemplating a 36 hole private/resort model. Mr Talmadge was a very nice guy on the phone. As you know they were not golfers but he mentioned a website where they were already listed on "The Next Fifty". Our boy Ran was really drinking the C&C juice back then as they were years away from breaking ground!!  

[TEPaul]

MikeS:

What I've never understood is how long the family (Talmadges) had been contemplating golf or even the point Ken Bakst got involved. I know at one point Fazio was involved in some way. I don't know what he did, a routing or what, but I believe he had some input before Coore and Crenshaw got involved. And I also know C&C and the crew were about ready to start and the whole project was stopped by some entity or problem for maybe over a year. That's when they got that call from the long time owners of the land that Easthampton GC sits on who asked them if they'd consider coming down there to do Easthampton since they were going to be on hold with FH.

[George Pazin]

Thanks for sharing the photos.

And thanks, Tony Nysse, for the additional insight. Shared firsthand knowledge is one of the things that makes this site so special.

The transition is more compressed than what I am used to seeing.

I wonder if this is simply the limitations of a small photograph. I'd guess the scale looks more natural in person.

[TEPaul]

I not concerned about the size of the photos I just wonder what he's talking about with the transition is more compressed than he's used to seeing?

Seeing where?

And what is or are Quercus?  

Turn Friars Head into a "parkland" golf course? Jeeesus, I don't think I'll ever get over that one!!  

[Mark Bourgeois]

I will say in all honesty, and with no intent of snarkiness, facetiousness or condescension, several posts have provided great food for thought relating to the "criticism" thread, specifically the notion that holding or freezing this course's natural state could in fact be very expensive.

Mark

PS George P, in your next job as moderator Job 1 is containing outbreaks of Quirkus obnoxiosus....

PPS Mike Sweeney, thanks from a former member of your home course.

[Michael Dugger]

I will say in all honesty, and with no intent of snarkiness, facetiousness or condescension, several posts have provided great food for thought relating to the "criticism" thread, specifically the notion that holding or freezing this course's natural state could in fact be very expensive.

Mark

PS George P, in your next job as moderator Job 1 is containing outbreaks of Quirkus obnoxiosus....

PPS Mike Sweeney, thanks from a former member of your home course.

??  Quirkus Obnoxiosus?

How about Randomsus bizarous

[Patrick_Mucci]

FYI,

The trees behind and immediately flanking the 15th green can't be touched.

They're Dwarf Beech Trees, indigenous to the bluffs and large dunes that rise abrubtly over Long Island sound.

The Dwarf Beech, High Bluff and the Dunes overlooking LI Sound are inextricably joined.

I don't believe that you'll find them anywhere else.

Thus, those trees are unique to the location where Friar's Head sits and won't be removed anytime soon.

[Dean Stokes]

How do I put photos on this site? Sorry for the dumb question but I do have a couple good photos.

[Matt_Cohn]

http://sports.webshots.com/album/370652761NfDfOP

[TEPaul]

MarkB:

Maybe it's me but in the last few days a few or your posts have made very little sense to me. I'm not saying I disagree with you or anything like that, I just have very little idea what you're trying to say. And I'm not talking about some of our posts that've been attempts at off-the-wall humor.