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Dexter_Gresh

Looking for info on Merion East
« on: July 24, 2002, 10:10:05 PM »
Hello ...

I've been lurking on this board for a while and this is my first post.  My interest in golf architecture stems mainly from my hobby of designing virtual golf courses for the Links 2001 computer golf sim.

Please forgive me if I'm out of line for asking this, but I'm interested in creating a version of Merion East for the Links game, and wondered if any of you could help me out.  I'm looking for:

1. Recent photos of the course
2. Yardage books (or scans of same)
3. Maps of the layout and/or course elevations

I'd also like to talk with anyone who might know Merion East, and could offer any general guidance and feedback as the course takes shape, and advise me of any recent changes to the course.

This is not a commercial venture... strictly a hobby.  As a life-long Philadelphian, I'm looking to share this historic US Open venue with fellow Links 2001 enthusiasts.

I can be reached via e-mail at: dxgresh@comcast.net

Thanks so much for any help!

Dexter Gresh
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2002, 10:43:05 PM »
Dexter, It is really easy. Just make the bunkers look as horrible as possible, and you have the all NEW Merion East.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2002, 02:44:35 AM »
Tommy,

Here is a picture of the what I think is the first green and I cannot find much wrong with that bunker..



Brian.

ps. taken this year..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2002, 07:48:28 AM »
Tommy:

While the Bunkers are somewhat different from the "White faces of Merion"  that I remember when I caddied there as a kid, I really don't think they are all that bad.
  
What really surprised me about Merion were the Iowa hay fields all over the East Course.
 
To me it is a look that just does not fit with one of the greatest Parklnad courses ever built.

It is not Scotland and it is not Merion By the Sea. Heck you can't even see the quarry on the famed quarry hole anymore because of the heather, fescues, and Scotch Broom.  
It's a maintenance plan I don't understand.

Fairways and Greens,

Dave

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2002, 09:13:07 AM »
Just to be consistent and to give JakaB a laugh I'll say that this bunker sure looks a whole lot better (and importantly probably plays a whole lot better) then the ones Roger Rulewich is building at Yale.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Which Rule

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2002, 09:57:16 AM »
GeoffreyC;

Oh?


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2002, 09:58:00 AM »
Bobby Jones:

Sorry,  but the best I could do is "I really don't think they are all that bad.  This was in response to Tommy N's post about horrible.

You gotta' admit they are not the Merion Bunkers of old with those lips and surrounds. But there is nothing wrong with them.

The World Famous bunkers were the White faces of Merion and that has been changed somewhat.  

The hay fields and amber waves of grain that make the place look like an Iowa Farm are something new this year.

Still don't understand the maintenance plan here.  But hey, if that's what the members want, it's their course and they can make it look like Iowa, Scotland or Merion-by-the-Sea in they choose.  

Just seem a shame to trick-up such a great course that probably defends par better than any course despite the fact that it would be considered relatively short by today's standards.

Fairways and Greens,

Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2002, 10:17:34 AM »
Which Rule

I'll see your bunker and raise you these two bunkers

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Which Rule

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2002, 10:22:59 AM »
Geoffrey C;

Since it appears we are both shooting blanks by comparing equally desultory work, perhaps we should cease and desist.  

For heaven's sake, don't make me pull out my trump card....you remember...the one where Hogan once fired a famous 1-iron on 18!   :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2002, 10:24:50 AM »
I've been waiting for that photo for months.

I DARE YOU TO POST IT!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Which Rule

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2002, 10:33:36 AM »
Geoffrey C;

I will arrange for the transfer of the disk to "he who's name should not be spoken" this evening.  I'm sure he can superimpose the appropriate photo into the modern backdrop.  

A dare is a dare.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2002, 11:37:38 AM »
Here is the photo of the plaque and a photo of the 18th fairway.  Tomorrow I will post the picture of Hogan...and hopefully not get sued!!  I think the by comparing the pictures you will see that the new bunkers are not that bad.

I hit a 280 yard drive on the 18th!!  My caddie was in shock that he measured it properly..  I brought him down to earth a few minutes later by chunking it into that bunker on the left and taking a 6!!  I shot 91.  I had a 6 iron to that bloody green and I choked.



and the fairway

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tim Jackson

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2002, 02:17:06 AM »
Tommy N. (and alias')

Great job adding something of value to the discussion with insight and intellect, whilst avoiding to sink further into your personal vendetta against all things Faz.  Oh wait........

I have seen poor bunkering in my day.  The work at Merion is not as 'horrible as possible', nor is it an exact true restoration to the lines and forms of the originals (your beef emperor?).

Do you think the bunkers changed in no small way from when Jones first played it in the 1914 Amateur, to when he won in 1930, or then to Hogan in the '50 Open?  I can hear Ben now, "Damn what they have done with the place!"




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2002, 02:40:53 AM »
GeoffreyC:

Thanks for posting that super round bunker at Yale--fantastic. Can you notice in that photo how bunkers like that inspire people? Look what it did to the sandpro guy--it appears the super roundness of the bunker inspired him to do a perfectly round sandpro pirouette! The combination is gorgeous!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2002, 01:22:39 PM »
Tim Jackson,
This is the first I have been on this website in almost three days, and find the whole list of posts to be pretty funny in regards to some of the most horrifying work imaginable. And as Dave mentions, "No this isn't our grandfather's Oldsmobile, nor should it be Merion by the Sea or an Iowa farm field either. This WAS supposed to be Merion Golf Club, a place that has history and time on its side. While you may think that this is a personal vendetta against one Tom Fazio, but if it had been one of the architects I favor doing this work, I would be holding my nose as to not smell the stench. It looks that bad.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Jackson

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2002, 10:02:42 PM »
Olfactory abuse, eh?

Well, out of the two styles shown in the above photos, one is integrated into the contouring, has interesting movement in the sand line, and appears more naturalistic.  The other looks like a heli-pad.

Perhaps not the white faces of Merion, but better than alot of bunkering I have seen.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2002, 11:19:31 PM »
Tim, Could answer a question:

In your opinion, regardless of what the client wanted, do you think that the entire bunker restoration at Merion is a success?

Brian Phillips,
Your an Englishman, so I'm hoping that you have a copy of your fellow Brit's Weathered & Simpson's Architectural Side of Golf. Open it up, read it and then tell me that you can't find much wrong witht he bunkers at Merion.

Use your best memory skills to visualize what the bunkers looked like while reading the book.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Timm Jackson

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2002, 12:16:10 AM »
Tommy

I can't answer that question after looking at just 2 photos, and without seeing comparison to what existed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ross

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2002, 10:07:56 AM »
You guys may be the least helpful bunch of people around. Someone asks for a little assistance with replicating a course for a game and you all go off on a tangent about poor bunkering and God knows what else. Try offering some assistance for a change instead of just yaking about whatever you feel like.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2002, 09:05:16 PM »
Ross is right. I am guilty of hijacking a simple thread asking about the design characteristics of a GREAT golf course--Merion Golf Club.  (For my critics, please grant me a little latitude here.)

In description, the fact is that Merion, Buddy Marucci bunkers and all is still a GREAT, but forever altered and harmed classic. But for those of you new to Golf Club Atlas, and those of you who have never seen Merion with your own eyes, it is unfortunate that the powers that be so unwisely took away 85+ years of breath-taking evolution by unwisely trying to interpret pictures from 1929. This was the type of restoration that was not only uninformed but ill-advised. The powers that be simply didn’t know how to handle this course with a certain fragility.

Many of you new to this type of talk will no doubt see the new bunkers with clean and crisp lines that look neatly maintained and manufactured. They have a total artificial, constructed look to them and the advent of crushed white marble didn’t do them any favors either. Gone are the intricate slopes, angles, and shapes. In its place are curled-edged “maintained” outlines that depict the bunkers more as modern gimmick that one can see at any CCFAD (Country Club For A Day)

The fact is that the bunkers at Merion may have needed a slight nip and tuck, but nothing so severe as we see today.

The best period to recreate the look of Merion would more then likely be from the 1981 US Open, where it has been described to me that the bunkers fully emphasized the attractive rough-at-the-edges appeal of the course. This look is what DEFINED Merion Golf Club. The Scotch Broom that grew in the bunkers was in full bloom, and the bunkers truly looked ferocious not from depth, but more from that au’natural scrape of  sand and earth exposed from all of the elements of wind, rain, heat and cold battering the rolling terrain. These sand hazards truly were white faces of fear, something to avoid because if you were in one, you were likely being provoked by them to take on “Chance” meaning that recovery was a possibility requiring a deft touch, and they actually invited you to do as such. For the player whose game may not be up to par, this could spell a certain doom. The bunkers also defined the characterization of the site itself--the absolute perfection of the routing of the course. (It happens to be one of my favorite routings in the game) as well as placement of those hazards. While typing this, I can’t help but think of the location of the target of the par 3, 3rd or the slope of the green at #5 which is a study of something many still have trouble understanding--the emphasis of Nature.

I salute the club’s wisdom for wanting to remove encroaching trees and recover fairways, which was tightened for that US Open, but can anyone imagine how great the course would be with that return look of the bunkers and shared fairways? (the maintenance meld that so many of us hope to see recaptured.)

While your original question is mostly pertaining to building Merion-East for one of the computer games, please remember that when doing so that the rugged lines of nature is what Merion was all about--not perfectly clean and crisp computer generated accuracy. It was the informal scraggly lines that were perfect, not the straight ones. I also recommend obtaining a copy of the World Atlas Of Golf, which further depicts the course. I also hope these pictures can help shed some light on what I am talking about.

Good luck.


#1-One of the best opening holes in Golf

#2, with hole #5 at the left. Can anyone see the maintenance meld needed on this hole?

#3 A True White Face]

#4

#7-The apporach in.

#7-This image properly depicts what could have been. These bunkers were properly restored by Gil Hanse and Company along with former Merion Club Professional-Bill Kittleman. Sadly, they were re-restored.

From Hole 7 looking over to green #5. A perfect description of the terrain at Merion

#10

#11-Site of maybe one of the Game’s brightest moments

#12
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2002, 09:22:12 PM »

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2002, 05:56:57 AM »
Tommy

Thanks very much for the older photos.  The yellowish sand is more attractive too.  I think you made your point! (I recognise that Lefty!)

Where do you think the inspiration for the wicker baskets came from?  I've seen early photos (1910) of Stoke Poges showing them, were they also found in Scotland?  

PS the wicker baskets are back at Stoke Poges, shame they wrecked the course for a new spa!

Dexter

I think the World Atlas is the best bet.  I'll scan it and forward.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

Ted Willis

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2002, 11:13:28 AM »
hey Tommy Naccarato,

can you post pictures of the rest of the back nine at merion, especially no. 16th?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2002, 08:54:50 PM »
Tommy;

Thanks for sharing those pictures, which speak more than 1000 words.

Paul;

You'd think that "lefty" would be smart enough to stay out of those ghastly, irregular, pits of doom!  ;)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dexter_Gresh

Re: Looking for info on Merion East
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2002, 11:11:05 PM »
Tommy and Brian -

Thanks so much for sharing those great photos.  I appreciate the help.  

I live in the Philadelphia area, but had not driven by Merion in many years... I'd forgotten how much of the course you can see up close from the roads that go through the course.  I plan to go back and take a few pics of my own, which I'll gladly post if anyone's interested.  

It does look much different, and to my admittedly untrained eye, I think the new bunkers are an improvement.... not sure about the fescue though. It seems to be all the rage these days in course design, and althought I personally like the way it looks, I can see why the traditionalists are upset.


Quote
While your original question is mostly pertaining to building Merion-East for one of the computer games, please remember that when doing so that the rugged lines of nature is what Merion was all about--not perfectly clean and crisp computer generated accuracy. It was the informal scraggly lines that were perfect, not the straight ones.

That challenge is part of what's attracting me to this project.  I don't want the course to look perfectly clean and crisp, and it will be a lot of work to make it not look that way, but hopefully it will be worth it.  Even with all the updates, it's a beautiful, historic course, and I want to do it justice.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »