New Golf Course in New York City RFP is out

[Bruce Katona]

Ray: When I first got here to Empire, I spent quite a bit of time on the Quarry Hills project....made several trips to Boston....in the end, we just couldn't quite get comfortble enough with the investment involved versus the return.....it will and I'm sure does make money, but the cost our our equity to inject into the deal to finish the project was too expensive to get a real ROI for us.

[Mike Sweeney]

Ray: When I first got here to Empire, I spent quite a bit of time on the Quarry Hills project....made several trips to Boston....in the end, we just couldn't quite get comfortble enough with the investment involved versus the return.....it will and I'm sure does make money, but the cost our our equity to inject into the deal to finish the project was too expensive to get a real ROI for us.

Bruce,

What little I know about Ferry Point, my guess is the same conclusion will happen here. Maybe when he gets out of office, the Bloomberg Foudation will take this on as a gift to the city and pay for the clean up. Right now, if you double or triple the greens fees of other NYC courses, I still can't see how you can generate enough revenue to cover the initial investment.

[Steve Lapper]

If I were to "guestimate" the costs involved here, a daily fee (with full RevPar and 95+% capacity utilization) would approximate near $200 in order to provide a 15-20% return for the invested $. If that # were to be diluted by the typical favoritism mandated by such a large-scale municipal project, those margins & the ROI would go out the door instantly.

This is another perfect example of why new urban public golf is near impossible these days.

[Ray Richard]

Bruce K-All I can say is smart move. Two local developers were partners and they managed to acquire and build-out some adjoining formerly public land and turn it into a large apartment complex. They may be the only ones who made any money.

[Tom Dunne]

What's the MTA situation for Ferry Point? Will it be like Vanny or Dyker, reachable via subway, or more like a Pelham/Split Rock? I think it makes a difference if you're looking at a $200 green fee...there's enough casual money in NYC to support that, in my opinion (not that it makes charging that much right, but that's another story...), but not many people want to rent a smartcar just to get in a round of golf.

[J Sadowsky]

Landfill courses, I thought, were pretty normal?  There's Emerald Links in Atlantic City, a fairly mundane "copycat course."  A quick internet search found this landfill golf primer:

http://www.brownfieldgolf.com/history.htm

According to that, other courses include the Chicago Harborside courses, Industry Hills in LA, Newcastle in Washington, and Old Works in Montana.

[SB]

I'm actually quite encouraged by what the new RFP says.  Unlike the previous deals, which required private dollars and risk, there are going to be two parts to this:

First, they are going to select an architect/construction manager.  The first part will be fairly normal, and the second part will be a huge pain as it will involve a great deal of red tape.  You also bid seperately for that cost.  

THIS IS IMPORTANT:  they are not asking for bids on the construction or the funds for the construction, just the oversight.  The city will then front the ENTIRE cost of construction, including remediation.  This is very good.  

After this is done, they will put out a new RFP based on the golf course plans.  Operators will then bid on the right to lease the golf course.  As part of that lease, they will have to front the money to build the clubhouse and whatever other amenities they want to build.  The city will set the rates and the lease term, meaning that if they set the rates too low, the lease payments will also be low, cutting the "return" to the city.  This means the city is determining its own economics.

Reading between the lines, I see this as their way of getting this done for once and for all.  I am sure they understand that they will be writing an exceptionally large check, particularly given the remediation.  

The people at the Parks department are smart, and a few are also golfers.  I'm sure they are very excited about this.  I'm sure they'll be impressed by the big names, but they've done work with totally unknown names in the past before, so I wouldn't worry too much.

I would highly encourage the architects on the board to at least take a look.  It will be the highest profile golf course built in this decade.  Just look how much press the lack of a golf course has received.  The architecture portion of this will not be any different than dealing with any other client.  Just make sure to get someone very good at internal NYC billing, etc., to help you.  Send me a message if you have any other questions.

Tom, the subway access is not good.  That said, even at Vanny, few golfers actually take the subway.

[Joel_Stewart]

Steve:

They originally wanted the greens fees to be in the $50 range.  The Nicklaus group was proposing $90 and the city was pissed off.  I haven't read the RFP but it may say what the type of green fee they want?

[SB]

They wanted more than $90.

[Chris_Blakely]

The closest subway to Ferry Point Park (park is at the base of the Whitestone bridge with one side being the landfill / future golf course - East side and other side being ball fields - West) is the six train and that is quite far away.  The park is divided by the Bruckner Expressway and the future golf course is best seen when travelling northwest from Queens into the Bronx over the Whitestone Bridge.

To get to Ferry Point Park by mass transit you would have to take the six train (green) into the bronx and pick up a bus from either Parkchester / East 177th Street stop (Queens Bronx 44 bus), Westchester Square stop (BX 40 0r 42) or a bus from Pelham Bay Park stop(Queens Bronx 1).  These buses would drop one off on one side of the other of the current Park and I have no idea where the new clubhouse would be.

If one was travellying by mass transit from Queens the two busses noted above would obviouslly take one to the course from Queens.

Here is a link to the MTA's Bronx bus map which also shows how far the six train runs with respect to the Ferry Point Park.  Please note that the six train has a circle for local servie and a diamond for express and runs primarily along Westchester Avenue in the Bronx.  Ferry Point Park is in the bottom right corner of the map and as stated above, the West side is ball fields and the East side is the landfill / future golf course.

http://www.mta.info/nyct/maps/busbx.pdf

As for subway goers that take the 1 train(red) to Van Cortlandt Park golf course, it is a lot higher than you would think.  It is also quite easy to get to by subway.

[Mike Sweeney]

From the RFP:

"The Lead Golf Course Designer and/or a Principal or the officer of the firm responsible for performance
of the work of this contract, must hold a New York State Professional License in Landscape
Architecture, Architecture or Engineering, and the Resident Engineer must hold a New York State
Professional License in Engineering."

_______________________________________

http://nycgovparks.org/sub_about/parks_divisions/capital/pdf/FPPFinalRFP_1_11_08.pdf

Now if they have ferry service from the 90th Street dock on the East Side, this could get interesting...........

[SB]

From the RFP:

"The Lead Golf Course Designer and/or a Principal or the officer of the firm responsible for performance
of the work of this contract, must hold a New York State Professional License in Landscape
Architecture, Architecture or Engineering, and the Resident Engineer must hold a New York State
Professional License in Engineering."

_______________________________________

http://nycgovparks.org/sub_about/parks_divisions/capital/pdf/FPPFinalRFP_1_11_08.pdf

Now if they have ferry service from the 90th Street dock on the East Side, this could get interesting...........

I've actually seen a site plan with a marina.  Good luck getting that permitted.

[Kalen Braley]

For those in the know, how much did the entire project at the Oakland Airport end up costing including the several years of landfill work and Johnny eventually building the Met links?

That must have been a pretty penny...

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