Is The Old Course....

[Mike Hendren]

..really that complex?

[Bill_McBride]

..really that complex?

I dunno, you tell me.



You can't see the fairway from half a dozen tees, you can't see the fairway bunkers sometimes when you CAN see the fairway.

The course can be played in either direction.

It's always safe to go way left but in most cases that leaves a much more difficult shot into the green.

Your caddy may give you a line 45 degrees right - or left - of where you think you ought to hit a drive.

When you get into a bunker, there is a price to be paid, you usually have to play out sideways or backwards.

The course plays fast as hell and the bunkers gather.

When you finally figure out how to hit the ball on the green over those cavernous greenside bunkers - take a look at Cottage some time, or the Road Bunker - the green is so big you wish you had practiced more 100 foot putts at home.

Is the Old Course complex?  Yes.  Is it fun as hell?  Yes.

[Tom Huckaby]

I buy everything Bill said.  And I do LOVE The Old Course.

BUT... another way of assessing it would be:

Keep the ball left, avoid the bunkers at all costs.

Is really any more advice needed on how to play the course?

Just being the devil's advocate here for the most part.

TH

[Joel_Stewart]

Hard to believe Tiger Woods didn't go in 1 bunker in 4 rounds.

[BCrosby]

Compared to quantum mechanics, finding Pareto optimal states, or solving the Riemann hypothesis, TOC is not very complex.

But compared to other golf courses, it is very complex. If you are paying attention.

Bob

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael,

Didn't Bobby Jones answer your question very eloquently a few years back?  

[TEPaul]

What a fantastic aerial photography. I've never seen one like that before from that angle that takes in the town.

[TEPaul]

"Didn't Bobby Jones answer your question very eloquently a few years back?"

MikeC:

I believe you are exactly right with that remark.

Jones' explanation of TOC and why he loved it so is probably right on the mark of what it really is.

And that's why some of us who discuss golf architecture to death probably need to remain mindful of the things we ask about architecture and the way we ask them, particularly the words we use in asking them.

TOC may be complex given a number of variabilities that have to do with it like the ever-changing wind and weather but I think Jones's remarks about it wasn't just that it was complex but that it was so variable and that is exactly what most of the America championship courses he was comparing it to were not, in his opinion!

So "complex" may not be the right question to ask but "variability" may be and what that means. After-all, variability may be one of the very baselines of what most of us have come to call "strategic" golf and architecture.

[Mike Hendren]

Hard to believe Tiger Woods didn't go in 1 bunker in 4 rounds.

Joel,

I am a hack and was only in two bunkers in 36 holes.

Mike

[Joel_Stewart]

Not from the back tees during the British Open with all the crowds over 4 rounds.

[Mike Hendren]

Michael,

Didn't Bobby Jones answer your question very eloquently a few years back?  

Mike, it probably IS complex if you're trying to squeeze an extra stroke out of the Old Lady here and there with hickory sticks.  But for the rest of us in today's world.........

I've had an awful caddy and great caddy there and it made no discernable difference.

Mike

[PThomas]

what a great freaking picture!

[Kyle Henderson]

Hard to believe Tiger Woods didn't go in 1 bunker in 4 rounds.

Joel,

I am a hack and was only in two bunkers in 36 holes.

Mike

Tiger has lived and breathed the game his entire life. He knows where the bunkers are at TOC, even if he can't see them, and he knows how to ensure that even his misses won't go in them.

Mike probably just aims right at them (with the help of a caddie), knowing he won't hit it straight, especially in the wind. That's what I would do, at any rate.

[Bob_Huntley]

A fabulous photograph and seeing the sands along the beach reminded me of why I watched for the umpteenth time last night, the movie "Chariots of Fire."

I get goose bumps every time I see that scene.

Bob

[Jason McNamara]

A fabulous photograph and seeing the sands along the beach reminded me of why I watched for the umpteenth time last night, the movie "Chariots of Fire."

I get goose bumps every time I see that scene.

Bob

I will not cease from planning fight
Nor shall my dozer sleep in my hand
Till we have built the Castle Course
In Scotland's grey and drizzly land.

(apologies to Blake, etc.)

[Michael Moore]

I finally played St. Andrews Links (The Old Course) on the simulator on Friday evening.

Like many first time visitors I was flummoxed by the featureless tee shots, overwhelmed by the sheer number of bunkers, annoyed by the multiple flagsticks in the distance, and enchanted by the possibility of another round. I would call the course very complex.

[John Moore II]

I certainly think the Old Course is complex, certainly when being viewed next to many of todays clubs. It will make you use every club in the bag and think on every shot. Sounds complex to me.

[Mike Hendren]

For the record, I have walked the course on a Sunday and played it twice - hardly qualifies me to argue either way.  I also believe it is the greatest golf course I have ever played (edges out Shinnecock).  It is my favorite as well.

That said, it was nowhere near as mysterious as I anticipated - 12th hole excepted as it confounds me to this day!

It is entirely possible that some of the strategy is offset by playing from forward tees that are customarily required.  

I drove the ball extremely well (for me) both rounds and was rarely in trouble, my low fade seemed a perfect fit for a change.  Regrettably my iron play was extremely poor.  I found the greatest challenge to be putting from distance in the extreme winds.  

The only unusual shots I played were into the 5th fairway for my second at the 14th as instructed by the caddie and a putter to five feet from 90 yards out at the 16th.  I also putted my approaches onto the 10th green both rounds.  

In summary, keep the ball left off the tee and a little long on the approaches, lag putt well and the course is relatively straight forward for all but the low handicapper.  

I found the course to be off-the-charts fun, but hardly mysterious.  I'm still not convinced.  Please keep trying.

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

If you are paying attention.
Bob

Bob, I know I appear to be a moron, but I play close attention to great golf courses.

Mike

[Bill_McBride]

For the record, I have walked the course on a Sunday and played it twice - hardly qualifies me to argue either way.  I also believe it is the greatest golf course I have ever played (edges out Shinnecock).  It is my favorite as well.

That said, it was nowhere near as mysterious as I anticipated - 12th hole excepted as it confounds me to this day!

Last time I played was in late March 2007 with the estimable Bruce Sorley on the bag.  

We get to the 12th tee, look out at that minefield of invisible bunkers and Bruce says, hit it at that cart track over there toward the Eden course.

 

So I did, played the driver maybe 30 degrees off line.

When we got there we were safely right of all the bunkers that litter that fairway, in very light rough with a good lie, and staring down the length of the green to a front center pin with a PW in hand.

Still managed a 3-putt bogey, but that was my fault, not Bruce's.  

Mysterious yes, and so much more fun with a knowledgeable caddy who is also having fun.

I just found out that our gang of 7 has scored a tee time (actually two) in June, after I feared we were shut out.  Great news indeed.....

[CJ Carder]

We get to the 12th tee, look out at that minefield of invisible bunkers and Bruce says, hit it at that cart track over there toward the Eden course.

 

So I did, played the driver maybe 30 degrees off line.

When we got there we were safely right of all the bunkers that litter that fairway, in very light rough with a good lie, and staring down the length of the green to a front center pin with a PW in hand.

My caddy had me take the same route the first day I played it and my results were similar (though I did manage a 2-putt).  The next day, completely opposite wind (this time the hole played downwind), my caddy has me go straight for the flag.  Nervously knowing what awaited me from the day before, I bailed out right, but my friend boldly took the straight route and carried all the bunkers in the middle.

The course played entirely different, I hit different shots into the greens, I had different distances, and I find myself in spots I never would have seen had the winds not been completely different.  I enjoyed the fact that even though I might have been further back, or closer to the hole, it was not just a simple club adjustment, but a wholesale adjustment in how to approach the hole.

[John Moore II]

CJ-That is very true, the playing characteristics can change greatly from day to day on the Old Course based on the wind and weather. This I think also makes the course very complex. You are playing the same set of holes day after day, but certainly not in the same conditions.

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