Firm and Undulating Greens-Bad?

[Seth Berliner]

Is there a negative side to having greens that are both firm and have a lot of undulation?  Would you consider this a double edged sword?

Does green speed effect your answer to this question?

Discuss.

[Joe Hancock]

Seth,

The factor that comes to my mind is the harmony in which the approaches and surrounds must work with greens of this type.

Joe

[Tim Bert]

From 2001 to 2003, I played the majority of my golf on a course that had firm, undulating, but only moderately paced greens.  The course was relatively new, and the greens got a bit softer each year, but they were still pretty firm when I stopped playing the course regularly.  You had to play run-up shots on most holes unless the pin was in the back of the green.  The undulating greens made the approaches, chips, and bumps a lot of fun to play.

In short, based on my only experience with firm and undulating greens it was not a bad thing.  I could see it being more problematic if the greens were particularly fast as well.

[David_Elvins]

Seth,

Grass type is another consideration as using a grass such as fescue in the green can make it easier to have rock hard greens that arent extremely fast paced.

Barnbougle Dunes as some fantastically undulating greens which are as firm as wood and slow in pace.  St Andrews would be similar as well.

IMO if you have undulating greens you want them to be as firm as possible so that the ball will bounce of the undulations but not so fast in pace that the ball rolls excessively off all slopes.  

[Seth Berliner]

Joe,

Good point.  Links courses tend to give the option of running shots up more than a traditional US layout might.  

If there is not ample room to land shots in front of a green does this change your thoughts?

[Jon Wiggett]

Seth,

if the green is to quick then it is also no longer really playable for the average golfer when combined with movement. Also, I would think that if the movement was to big i.e. 4 foot up and then back down and this repeatedly done it becomes somewhat waring. A good example is the 16th at North Berwick which is an extreme green but challenging. If every green were like it, it would make the course over the top. Indeed, with NB one of its facinations is that it has so many unique holes.

If the green is firm then I think undulations are needed to help control the length of the running shot. For me there is also an argument for saying small greens need more undulation in them for this reason even if it means fewer pin positions.

[Seth Berliner]

Jon,

I agree that when green speeds get too fast with undulation, the average golfer will struggle.  It also makes for some very difficult chip and pitch shots when you miss the green on the wrong side of the hole.

I tend to like this because it forces the player to be creative to get to some hole locations on the short shots.  I think this is where some people will begin to think a green is "hokie" but others as "challenging".

[Michael Dugger]

You are describing the greens on most links and links like courses considered to be the greatest around.

St. Andrews
Sand Hills
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Trails
Friar's Head
Kingsley Club
Royal Melbourne
Crystal Downs
Pinehurst #2

[Seth Berliner]

Michael,

I understand that the courses you list are great not just because of the greens.  That being said, does a newer course with the same type of greens have a more difficult time being looked at as a good course because it doesn't hae the credibility?

[David_Elvins]

You are describing the greens on most links and links like courses considered to be the greatest around.

St. Andrews
Sand Hills
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Trails
Friar's Head
Kingsley Club
Royal Melbourne
Crystal Downs
Pinehurst #2

You sure?  I wouldn't have described the greens there as undulating.

[Michael Dugger]

Michael,

I understand that the courses you list are great not just because of the greens.  That being said, does a newer course with the same type of greens have a more difficult time being looked at as a good course because it doesn't have the credibility?

A good course is a good course, so I would say no it does not.

[Philippe Binette]

I don't have any trouble with firm, fast and undulating greens as long as there is some room to run the ball onto those greens...

If you have forced carries on every hole on those type of greens, it becomes madness for everybody except the best players...


Somebody said the greens aren't undulating at Royal melbourne... I remember seeing balls being blown away of the greens there (in July and not on tournament conditions)

[Seth Berliner]

So is it the consensus that you MUST have room to run shots on for fast and undulating greens to be acceptable?

[John Moore II]

I am not sure if its concensus. I have nothing against very undulating greens that are rock hard and rolling at a 13. You just have to place your shots very carefully. Do I think this is ideal for dialy fee play. Certainly not. But do I like such situations? Absolutly. The firmer, faster and more undulating they are the better the golf one has to play in order to score well.