[ed_getka]

I don't know much about the rest of the golf world, but width with appropriately firm greens should provide all the challenge most golfers need if approach angles matter.
   As some have pointed out Augusta and the US Open are not helping matters. As John McPhee pointed out in his Oakmont essay, there were "monofilament fairways" for the last Open. I do like the graduated rough idea they used at Winged Foot and I assume they used at Oakmont. So hopefully that idea will catch on more than just going extremely narrow.

[ed_getka]

I think it's an American mind set that leads to narrow fairways...Americans want order, few options,and essentially something to "lead the way"....thus we plant trees or grow rough to provide corridors to provide a path to the green and create some "order" in what would otherwise be a chaotic situation...

If you don't think I'm right, show a picture of the Old Course to an American golfer and they'll say "where do you hit the ball?"

You bring up a good point Craig. Given the numerous ways in which we are dumbing down our society, it makes sense that it would carry over to golf courses too. I grew up playing on tree-lined courses in the northeast, and it took me a while to get used to having to pick a specific target out here in Calif. So I can relate to the crutch of having the tree-lined fairway. On the other hand, there is a freedom in the swing that comes from not having to worry about  a straightjacket of trees.

[TEPaul]

"I enjoy that distinction.
It's one of the things that makes me unique  "


Well, since you seem to be right about 2% of the time I think that remark can nicely fall into that 2%. Being out of touch with the rest of the world pretty much does make you fairly unique. Is this why you feel you can criticize and blame whole memberships when hardly anyone in any of them agrees with you?  

If you respond to that again with that sappy "The price of greatness is eternal vigilance" I'm gonna recruit about half a dozen whole memberships to collectively slap you upside your head!

[Patrick_Mucci]

The work of Doak and C&C and others seems to have re-ignited an interest in width and different playing angles and not just among the devotees of GCA.  


Art,

I think that's an interesting point.

Playing courses with wide fairways seems to provide the golfer with a challenge that's FUN to meet.

Walking off the 18th green at courses like Wild Horse, Hidden Creek, Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes makes the golfer want to head straight for the 1st tee.

But, does the average golf KNOW what evokes that desire ?

Remember, each golfer tends to view the golf course in the context of their own game, so, when a golfer hits the ball a foot from the left rough and is left with a perfect opening into the green, does he realize that if he was a foot off the right rough he'd have a far more difficult shot into the green.

Conversely, if he was a foot off the right rough and faced with a very difficult shot, would he curse the golf course for its poor design, not realizing that the same tee shot, one foot off of the left rough would be royally rewarded ?

While I agree with the template of some of those you mention, I wonder if the golfer can extrapolate why he enjoys those courses so much.

And, if so, then why isn't that same golfer going back to his home course and telling fellow members that they made a mistake when they narrowed the fairways and that the fairways should be rewidened ?

Somehow there's a disconnect that hasn't been rebridged.
[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think it's an American mind set that leads to narrow fairways...Americans want order, few options,and essentially something to "lead the way"....thus we plant trees or grow rough to provide corridors to provide a path to the green and create some "order" in what would otherwise be a chaotic situation...

If you don't think I'm right, show a picture of the Old Course to an American golfer and they'll say "where do you hit the ball?"

AGREED[/color]

[John Moore II]

Pat-you didn't answer my question. Why does it matter how wide the fairways are? For someone who hits the ball straight, does it matter if its narrow? I personally don't like really wide fairways, I like to actually have to hit a precise shot off the tee. So again...Why do fairways NEED to be wide?

[John Moore II]

Pat-to answer another question, soft flat fairways are of no penalty to anyone because if you can hit the ball inside a 50 yard wide fairway, it pretty much sits down within 2 or 3 yards of where it lands. At Open Championship courses, the fairways might be 100 yards wide at times, but the ball rolls a lot and can wind up in bad places if a precise shot is not hit. Sand Hills and places like that can have wide fairways bacause they have wonderful contours. But on flat courses, wide fairways may as well be driving ranges, 'Hit one hard, hit one high' --If you can't hit the ball inside a 50 yard wide fairway, get a lesson, you stink.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Well, since you seem to be right about 2% of the time I think that remark can nicely fall into that 2%. Being out of touch with the rest of the world pretty much does make you fairly unique.

Is this why you feel you can criticize and blame whole memberships when hardly anyone in any of them agrees with you?  

I was talking to two former members of your club the other day, Edmund Burke and Phillip Wylie.  I don't believe you know them, they told me that they resigned the day that you were admitted.

I've known them for a long time.

Many years ago Edmund told me:
 
" Pat,  the only thing necessary for architectural mayhem and disfigurations to take place is for good members to do nothing.  
Never sit back and go with the flow and never allow the folly of the membership's desire to force a fad, or their personal agenda upon the golf coure.
Protect the architecture as much as you can.  
Speak up against the membership for their misquided and/or poor decisions, even if you're the only voice of opposition. It's only when their idiotic ideas are subject to scrutiny, provided by the sunlight of enlightened from intelligent individuals such as yourself, that the clubs and their memberships realize the error of their ways.  
So, never stop criticizing poor decisions on their part.  
And remember, they'll always try to say it was another faction that was responsible, and one idiot will always try to defend them".

Then Phillip told me:

"Pat, without constructive criticism, progress is impossible.
Memberships go off on so many foolish tangents that it's hard to keep track.  Let them do what they want with and inside of the clubhouse, but, when it comes to the golf course, never remain silent.  Be the reasoned sentinel of the architecture, even if 98 % or 99 % of the membership is against you.
 
Listen to Edmund and employ the gist of my remark. "

Lastly, they asked me to tell them when you were no longer a member so that they could reapply.[/color]

If you respond to that again with that sappy "The price of greatness is eternal vigilance" I'm gonna recruit about half a dozen whole memberships to collectively slap you upside your head!

Just don't forget who my neighbor is.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat-you didn't answer my question.
Why does it matter how wide the fairways are?

Johnny M,

I did answer your question.
You either ignored my answer or didn't understand it.[/color]

For someone who hits the ball straight, does it matter if its narrow?

Could you tell me what percentage of the membership at any given club hits the ball straight ?[/color]

I personally don't like really wide fairways, I like to actually have to hit a precise shot off the tee.

Now I understand.
You have your agenda, solely contexted in your game, while ignoring the game of the vast and wide variety of the membership [/color]

So again...Why do fairways NEED to be wide?

See my previous answer.[/color]

[Kyle Harris]

One can hit an imprecise shot into a very wide fairway and be absolutely screwed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat-to answer another question, soft flat fairways are of no penalty to anyone because if you can hit the ball inside a 50 yard wide fairway, it pretty much sits down within 2 or 3 yards of where it lands.

Where are you coming up with widths of 70-80 yards as you did in another post ?

Could you cite 10 member owned clubs in the U.S. with 50 yard wide fairways ?

Could you cite 10 member owned clubs in the U.S. with flat, soft fairways ?

Perhaps your playing experience differs radically from mine and that explains our relative perspectives.[/color]

At Open Championship courses, the fairways might be 100 yards wide at times, but the ball rolls a lot and can wind up in bad places if a precise shot is not hit.

I'm fairly familiar with U.S. Open venues and I'm not aware of any fairway that's 100 yards wide.   What OPEN course/s are  you referencing ?[/color]

Sand Hills and places like that can have wide fairways bacause they have wonderful contours. But on flat courses, wide fairways may as well be driving ranges, 'Hit one hard, hit one high' --

Maidstone, GCGC, Hidden Creek and Friar's Head have many flat, wide fairways but, I've never heard those courses refered to a "driving ranges"[/color]

If you can't hit the ball inside a 50 yard wide fairway, get a lesson, you stink.

I think I"ve solved the problem.

# 1 I don't know of many courses with 50 yard wide fairways,
      those courses seem rare these days.

# 2, And this is the most important of the two.
       Most Members stink.
       The average handicap is 19
       Clubs are composed of a great variety of golfers.
       From zero to 36 to 45 handicappers.
       And, the majority of the golfers ARE HIGH HANDICAPPERS
       Which is something you've lost sight of, or choose to
       ignore.
       Those golfers tack around the golf course, they don't rip
       a 300 yard drive and hit a wedge to the green.
       They need alternate lines of play, not the mandate
       of but a single line of play.
       
Please tell me that you now understand[/color]

[John Moore II]

Pat- First, the Open Championship is the one contested in Scotland/England on unheard of courses such as The Old Course, Carnoustie, Troon, and a few other lesser known clubs. Perhaps I am mistaken but I seem to recall many of those courses being rather spacious.
--How many clubs in the US are really member owned anymore? As far as I know, only one in my area of Pinehurst is member owned, and its also open to the public. None of the private clubs there are member owned.
--Hasentree in Raleigh, Eagle Point in Wilmington, and National in Pinehurst all have very wide fairways. Are they all 50 yards? I'm not really sure, I haven't measured them. All I know is that if I hit even a moderate drive, I can hit the fairway with no problem.
--Most of the courses in the Pinehurst area have very generous fairways, in many respects, to my tastes, to wide. Especially at my club, the fairways are huge. I rarely see anyone miss those fairways.
--Is it really too much to ask that people hit good shots in order to shoot a good score and not hit some big banana slice that is still able to remain in the fairway?

[Philip Gawith]

Pat, outside of GCA circles, I don't think i have ever heard a golfer use the word "width" in the context of discussing the merits of a course. And very, very few ever use the associated word - strategy.

At risk of stating the very obvious/familiar, i think most of these players have been brainwashed by what they see on TV and what they read. Accordingly, they judge courses mostly in terms of their difficulty, and their conditioning. Everyone wants a well conditioned course, and the great fear is that your home course be considered too easy. This is a very bad thing! So anything which is associated with making things easier - which is superficially what greater width is seen to offer - makes them nervous.

Possibly this is because the greens on their courses are too soft and hence greater width DOES make them easier.

So I suppose if you are going to talk width, then you  need to talk angles, and you need to talk strategy, and you need to talk "firm and fast" - they all hang together. And, by and large, to your topic, these are not part of the average golfers vocabulary/thinking - so this crowd is indeed, as we all know, well out of sync.

Ultimately, surely, one has to persuade people to think in terms of good = enjoyable/interesting, not good = tough. Against that backdrop, width makes sense - otherwise it just leaves people bemused, wondering why you want to make things easier.

[James Bennett]

Lloyd-with soft greens, you also take away the difficulty aspect.

Of course, that's why I brought it up. It's darts, not golf. With firm greens positioning of the tee shot is important. Narrow fairways, in that they encourage even the best players to aim down the centre, take away this strategic element of the hole.

Lloyd (and Johnny)

I prefer to compare it with archery rather than darts.  

There is some strategy with the scoring on the dart board - I think triple 20 is next to triple 1, which is akin to risk/reward) whereas archery is all about bullseyes and graduated scoring.  Archery scoring is more about fairness.

James B

[Michael Moore]

So anything which is associated with making things easier - which is superficially what greater width is seen to offer - makes them nervous.

Possibly this is because the greens on their courses are too soft and hence greater width DOES make them easier.

Philip -

Isn't a given course de facto more difficult when the fairways are narrower? How is that conclusion superficial?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat- First, the Open Championship is the one contested in Scotland/England on unheard of courses such as The Old Course, Carnoustie, Troon, and a few other lesser known clubs. Perhaps I am mistaken but I seem to recall many of those courses being rather spacious.

Courses that are constantly swept by winds, especially high winds, MUST have wide fairways or they become unplayable for their members/guests[/color]


--How many clubs in the US are really member owned anymore?

I'd say a tremendous number are member owned.[/color]

As far as I know, only one in my area of Pinehurst is member owned, and its also open to the public.

Which club is that ?
[/color]

None of the private clubs there are member owned.

What about the Country Club of North Carolina in Pinehurst ?[/color]

--Hasentree in Raleigh, Eagle Point in Wilmington, and National in Pinehurst all have very wide fairways. Are they all 50 yards? I'm not really sure, I haven't measured them. All I know is that if I hit even a moderate drive, I can hit the fairway with no problem.

50 yards is fairly wide, I'd be surprised if any of those clubs have all their fairways at 50 yards.  If they're 34 yards would it alter your thinking ?[/color]

--Most of the courses in the Pinehurst area have very generous fairways, in many respects, to my tastes, to wide.


Could it be because they cater to the golfing public and the owners want them to have an enjoyable, not a miserable, time when they play their course ?[/color]

Especially at my club, the fairways are huge. I rarely see anyone miss those fairways.

--Is it really too much to ask that people hit good shots in order to shoot a good score and not hit some big banana slice that is still able to remain in the fairway?

Just because a ball remains on the fairway doesn't mean that the golfer is left with the ideal or even a good to fair angle of attack into the green.

Forcing a golfer to hit from point A to point B to point C makes for boring golf.

Who would want to play that type of course on a daily basis ?

One of the reasons that Friar's Head, Hidden Creek, GCGC and NGLA are so enjoyable is that golfers are given many choices, based on the flight of their ball and their abilities.

NGLA has a great schematic showing alterante routes for the par and the bogie golfer, AND, they're really different routes, save for the par 3's.

VARIETY is the spice of life and the key to enjoyable golf.[/color]

[John Moore II]

Seven Lakes Country Club is the only member owned club I know of. I am 99% certain that CCNC is not equity, I could however be wrong on that one. And I am sure that Forest Creek is not member owned.
--Yes for the clubs to have 35 yard wide fairways would change my way of thinking, but I know Eagle Point is very wide open, with the exception of 1 or 2 holes. Some holes I would say are wider than 50 yards.
--I am simply trying to get to the bottom of the idea that its one of Seven Deadly Sins of Golf to have narrow fairways. Thats my only idea, since when did narrow fairways become bad, same as 7000 yards.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Johnny M,

Narrow fairways became bad when members chose to reconfigure them that way.

They reduce playing options, angles of attack and thinking.

However, the latter never occured to TEPaul.

[John Moore II]

But are narrow fairways bad if the members reconfigure them in the same spirit that the course was meant to play. Some of the fairways at Tobacco Road could I think could be split, penalizing shots in the wrong places. Many of my fairways, I think could be far narrower and not fundamentally reduce the options the golfers has, no matter what handicap.

[Patrick_Mucci]

But are narrow fairways bad if the members reconfigure them in the same spirit that the course was meant to play.

Here's where TEPaul will rush in to defend you.

I don't think the memberships have enough information and intelligence to reconfigure the fairways in the same spirit that the course was meant to play.  

And, for whom was the course meant to play ?
Just the zero handicap, or the broad spectrum of golfers who comprise the membership ?[/color]

Some of the fairways at Tobacco Road could I think could be split, penalizing shots in the wrong places. Many of my fairways, I think could be far narrower and not fundamentally reduce the options the golfers has, no matter what handicap.


I couldn't comment on either course as I've not played them.[/color]

[Lloyd_Cole]

Some of the fairways at Tobacco Road could I think could be split, penalizing shots in the wrong places.

Johnny,

The whole point of having width is that the player in the wrong place is already punished by having the least desirable angle to the green. As mentioned before, without firm greens, these types of subtle punishments are considerably undermined, and it's a darts match.

It strikes me, from your posts,  that your objection to width is comes from your wanting the tee shot to have a distinct acceptable landing area, and those who hit it are rewarded, those missing it, punished. This is the essence of target golf and removes considerable intellect from the game. On the wide course, eg TOC, the player has to plan his way from tee to green, he is not instructed by the course (often the best way is to start at the flag and work backwards),  and the smart player is rewarded, even if he is not the greatest ball striker, over the less intelligent golfer, even if this chap has great technique and can execute at will. Would it be unfair for me to deduce that you don't like this idea?

Another key point to consider is that these hacks that I see you referring to (I trust you excel in all of your endeavours), and other less than perfect sportsmen, can navigate their own individual way around a wide course, and if they are willing to accept the limitations of their technique, and play within themselves,  they can partake of an enjoyable challenge. Not so when it's one target for all players.

[John Moore II]

To go with the whole "spirit of the course' idea, I really like that Pete Dye said about Ross and his designs. One of his comments was that Ross might have put the tee to Hole 1 from course 2 in the parking lot if he could see how people play now. So, in some cases, the architect may have done far differently today than years ago. I think at times also, narrow fairways can also bring back angles that the architect may have wanted, same with the original approaches. Like I say though, it must be done by someone with a clue.

[Joe Hancock]

Imagine a hole with incredible width...60, even 80 yards wide. Now imagine the best angle to approach and hold the green being on the  extreme left side of the fairway. Being in the middle is tough at best, and being on the right side of the fairway makes it darn tough to get the ball on the green. Place a few bunkers around for planning and head games off the tee and you have a recipe for fun, wide golf that would absolutely be ruined with a narrow fairway in the middle of the corridor.

Joe

[Philip Gawith]

So anything which is associated with making things easier - which is superficially what greater width is seen to offer - makes them nervous.

Possibly this is because the greens on their courses are too soft and hence greater width DOES make them easier.

Philip -

Isn't a given course de facto more difficult when the fairways are narrower? How is that conclusion superficial?

Michael you are right - all other things being equal, narrower must be more difficult.

It is superficial to purely discuss width in terms of an easy-difficult spectrum because it is incomplete - the discussion is about whether width adds interest and challenge to golf. To neglect that dimension is to be superficial.

[Marc Haring]

Imagine a hole with incredible width...60, even 80 yards wide. Now imagine the best angle to approach and hold the green being on the  extreme left side of the fairway. Being in the middle is tough at best, and being on the right side of the fairway makes it darn tough to get the ball on the green. Place a few bunkers around for planning and head games off the tee and you have a recipe for fun, wide golf that would absolutely be ruined with a narrow fairway in the middle of the corridor.

Joe

Joe

We kind of have a hole like that on my course at Cumberwell Park. It's the 32nd and has a fairway 100 yards wide. Here's the tee shot.



There's a line of bunkers that splits the fairway into two distinct parts and if you go down the left side you are left with this simple approach.


Anything even in the centre makes the second much tougher


If you bale out right, the mound will totally obscure your view of the green which is narrow and angled so as to make it very difficult even to hit the green. We even put in a little gully on the right side to catch anything coming up short from over there.
Looking back from the green.




It's a fun hole, not long at about 350 yards but it gets you thinking.

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