[Patrick_Mucci]

Are we the only ones who value width ?

When venue after venue narrows fairways to host a tournament and then fails to return them to their previous width, does it reinforce the trend toward narrowness ?

When course after course narrows their fairways in an attempt to combat length, does it reinforce the trend toward narrowness ?

What can be done to enlighten clubs and get them to begin to rewiden their fairways ?

[Jordan Wall]

Are we the only ones who value width ?

Pat, I'd say no to this.  I mean, obviously we are not the ONLY ones but in the grand scheme of things I bet the average player enjoys wider fairways.  I dont know of an 18 handicap who enjoys brutally tight golf courses as opposed to those which provide ample width off the tee, and to the landing zones.

When venue after venue narrows fairways to host a tournament and then fails to return them to their previous width, does it reinforce the trend toward narrowness ?

Yes.  Augusta could be a prime example.

When course after course narrows their fairways in an attempt to combat length, does it reinforce the trend toward narrowness ?

I'd say, if anything, it stresses the trend toward more length.  However, a lack of length is no excuse for narrowing fairways.  I'd say firm up courses, if anything.  That would account for more roll and perhaps make the course play that much shorter, but if a course plays firm enough it enhances a course's strategy and can even make holes play more difficult.

What can be done to enlighten clubs and get them to begin to rewiden their fairways ?

A move by Augusta toward wider fairways, as the course used to be, would make for a good start, I'd think.

[Walt_Cutshall]

I don't favor wide fairways. IMO, it disproportionately rewards the long hitters.

[J_ Crisham]

Jordan, I'm not quite sure if Augusta is the example I would chose. My reasoning is that the wider fairways are to accomodate a necessary approach angle to differing pin placements. In short if you are on the wrong side of the fairway you are dead. The players would rather be in the first cut of rough on the proper side. The first cut is similar to green fringes at most clubs. I am a proponet of reasonably wide fairways for nontournament play. Just my preference.

[mike_beene]

This very premise proves we are out of touch. How many golfers play at a course that has ever had its fairways narrowed for a tournament. Most are just trying not to slice. A privileged portion of those evaluate a course by the size of the houses it plays through.

[Bill Gayne]

Jordan,

Augusta National is still a very wide golf course. It's been two years since I've been to the Masters but the only point the Augusta National is excessively tight is the tee shot on 11 and 15. I suspect we all routinely play courses much tighter than ANGC.

If you're looking for a move by ANGC they have recently removed trees in the landing area at #11

The biggest culprit in the trend to narrow fairways is the USGA.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Augusta National is still a very wide golf course. It's been two years since I've been to the Masters but the only point the Augusta National is excessively tight is the tee shot on 11 and 15. I suspect we all routinely play courses much tighter than ANGC.

If you're looking for a move by ANGC they have recently removed trees in the landing area at #11

The biggest culprit in the trend to narrow fairways is the USGA.

Bill,

Augusta may still be a wide golf course, but the fact is they are trending toward tightening the course.
They added trees, and also added a second cut.

The point is, there are many courses which will follow Augusta's lead.  So whether the course is tight or not, the fact is that it has been tightened, and other courses will follow that trend.  Augusta seems to be the poster child for what every golf course wants to be.  So by tightening the golf course, even just a little, other courses will follow that example.

[Bill_McBride]

Jordan,

Augusta National is still a very wide golf course. It's been two years since I've been to the Masters but the only point the Augusta National is excessively tight is the tee shot on 11 and 15.

#7 has always looked really tight on TV - I've never been to Augusta.  That was when the hole was 355 yards, 1-iron PW. Today it's 450 yards and the players are hitting driver down that claustrophobic chute!

The biggest culprit in the trend to narrow fairways is the USGA.

Now you're talking!  I suspect those that host USGA majors are the clubs that don't bring the fairways back out after the tournament.  I wonder what they will do at Torrey Pines this July?

[Patrick_Mucci]

This very premise proves we are out of touch.

How many golfers play at a course that has ever had its fairways narrowed for a tournament.

The millions that play public/resort courses like Bethpage Black, Pinehurst # 2, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, Whistling Straits, the TPC courses and the private courses that have hosted tournaments.

And, don't forget the millions who view the ribbon narrow fairways on TV[/color]

Most are just trying not to slice. A privileged portion of those evaluate a course by the size of the houses it plays through.[size=8x]
?[/color][/size]

[Michael Powers]

Patrick,
Another source of fairways becoming more narrow is poor drainage.  Our fairways have become more narrow over the years because previous superintendants have ignored drainage issues.  An area would become wet, not get mowed, and the easy fix is just to let it become rough.

[John Moore II]

Beyond the fact that it is hard to move fairways in and out in width quickly from a maintenance standpoint, its not practical for a club that hosts a tournament every year to change the fairway widths. I myself have nothing against narrow fairways. Is it how they played way back when? No, but players are different. Read Pete Dyes article about what he thinks about 'classic' courses and designers, very enlightening I think. Wide fairways, Narrow fairways, who cares. Hit the ball straight and it doesn't matter if the fairways are 1 yard wide.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Powers,

I think irrigation systems were the early culprits in narrowing fairways, followed or preceeded by the tree planters.

Johnny M,

If I were a member of a golf course that hosted a tournament every year, my advice to the club's leadership would be to make sure that the golf course is properly prepared for the membership 361 days a year as opposed to being properly prepared for NON-members for 4 days a year.

With respect to moving the rough lines, its usually dependent upon the geographic location and time of year that the tournament is held, and, it's fairly easy to recapture the wider widths, UNLESS a course has planted their roughs with grasses dramatically different from their fairways.

Upper Montclair made the transition routinely, every year, for decades, when they hosted a PGA event.

[John Moore II]

Pat-what I was trying to say, if you know you are hosting an event again, why waste the labor hours to change the course just to do it over again next year? Also, as I said, why does it matter how wide the fairways are? Do narrow fairways really make us out of sync? Many of the Open Championship courses certainly look as if they have narrow fairways, or at least penalizing fairways. On a flat course with soft fairways, the only way for them to be penalizing to poor shots is for them to be narrow.

[Art Roselle]

The USGA and television coverage of tour events will still drive some courses to keep getting narrower.  However, I do not think that we are completely out of touch.  In fact, I think the trend in some cases is moving back in the other direction.  There are plenty of examples of narrowing, but over the past 10 or 15 years there have also been examples of widening and I think that trend is picking up steam.  The work of Doak and C&C and others seems to have re-ignited an interest in width and different playing angles and not just among the devotees of GCA.  

When our club did a restoration of its Ross course, here is a quote from one of the communications to the members:
"Ross allowed for wider fairways in order for the golfer to play both sides of the course, depending on the pin placement.  Although the wider fairways will appeal to the average golfer, the placement of bunkers in the fairways will affect golfers of every skill level.  To successfully conquer the course, golfers must play both intelligently and bravely."

There was very little resistance to this idea of wider fairways.  Sure, a few people worried that the course might become "too easy", but they were clearly in the minority.  Now that it is complete, the fairways are much wider and people seem to love it.  I don't think a change like this would have been as well received 15 years ago.  Clearly, the appreciation for width and strategy seems to have increased.

[mike_beene]

I wonder how many courses have narrowed fairways to combat length or narrowed them for a tournament and left them? I would guess the percentage is statistically a nonevent. If we think the narrowing of an Oakmont really affects the vast majority of golf we are out of touch.Out of touch is not a bad thing as long as we recognize it. How do we influence what we don't understand?

[TEPaul]

"Are we out of touch/sync with the rest of the golf world?"

I don't know about the rest of us, Patrick, but you are definitely out of touch and out of sync not just with the rest of the world of golf but with pretty much the rest of the world period!

[John Moore II]

Pat-please explain why exactly narrow fairways make us out of touch? I am not sure how they do that.

[Lloyd_Cole]

On a flat course with soft fairways, the only way for them to be penalizing to poor shots is for them to be narrow.

Johnny
I think you'd need soft greens, too for that to be the case. With firm greens the angle of approach should have some bearing on the difficulty of the task presented.

[John Moore II]

Lloyd-with soft greens, you also take away the difficulty aspect. Any shots can pretty much hold on a soft green. Firm greens with narrowish fairways provide the best challenge for golfers as it requires then to be precise with all shots.
--BTW-when I say narrow, I am not meaning US Open narrow in the 20 yard wide range. But 70-80 yard wide fairways, to me, are a bit too wide. I think fairways in the 30-35 yard range are ideal on mostly flat courses. On courses with large elevation changes, especially R-L or L-R grades, the fairways need to be wider.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Lloyd-with soft greens, you also take away the difficulty aspect.

Of course, that's why I brought it up. It's darts, not golf. With firm greens positioning of the tee shot is important. Narrow fairways, in that they encourage even the best players to aim down the centre, take away this strategic element of the hole.

[Rick Shefchik]

Bingo, Lloyd.

I wondered if someone was going to bring up that point. Width without firm greens -- for the modern pro, anyway -- provides little in the way of strategic enhancement.

With the vertical game now in practice, even the skilled club player can get at any pin from any angle, unless the greens are hard or the fairways provide lots of uneven lies.

Firm up the greens and I think you'd see the fairways get wider.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Bingo, Lloyd.

I wondered if someone was going to bring up that point. Width without firm greens -- for the modern pro, anyway -- provides little in the way of strategic enhancement.

With the vertical game now in practice, even the skilled club player can get at any pin from any angle, unless the greens are hard or the fairways provide lots of uneven lies.

Firm up the greens and I think you'd see the fairways get wider.

Except at the US Open when it's not at Pinehurst... Narrow fairways and firm greens make Jack a Dull Boy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat-what I was trying to say, if you know you are hosting an event again, why waste the labor hours to change the course just to do it over again next year?

If you're hosting a PGA Tournament every year, you've got plenty of money to spend on the labor it takes to widen and narrow the fairways.

Narrowing, in comparison to widening, costs next to nothing, so, it's pretty much a non factor, and, since you have to mow fairway and roughs several times a week, gradually mowing the rough back to fairway, with a little TLC thrown in, costs very litte.[/color]
[size=4x]
Also, as I said, why does it matter how wide the fairways are? [/size]


Surely, you jest !
And, I hope you don't mind that I call you Surely.[/color]

Do narrow fairways really make us out of sync?

No, they don't, they just defeat the purpose of the architecture[/color]

Many of the Open Championship courses certainly look as if they have narrow fairways, or at least penalizing fairways.


How would you equate the ability of the contestants in the OPEN Championships with the ability of the members ?

Removing options of play and margins of error, for players who need both, is counterproductive, destructive and makes the game less fun, and contrary to what the architect intended when he designed and built the golf course.[/color]

On a flat course with soft fairways, the only way for them to be penalizing to poor shots is for them to be narrow.
[size=4x]
The only way for "WHOM" to be penalized ?
[/color][/size]

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Are we out of touch/sync with the rest of the golf world?"

I don't know about the rest of us, Patrick, but you are definitely out of touch and out of sync not just with the rest of the world of golf but with pretty much the rest of the world period!

I enjoy that distinction.
It's one of the things that makes me unique [/color]

[Craig Sweet]

I think it's an American mind set that leads to narrow fairways...Americans want order, few options,and essentially something to "lead the way"....thus we plant trees or grow rough to provide corridors to provide a path to the green and create some "order" in what would otherwise be a chaotic situation...

If you don't think I'm right, show a picture of the Old Course to an American golfer and they'll say "where do you hit the ball?"

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