[Ed Oden]

If the criteria for having an unfair circumstance is that you didn't play a poor shot to put yourself in the place of the predicament, then there really are not many unfair situations.  Seems to me most all bad spots on a golf course are created by playing a less than ideal shot to get there.  So I don't buy that stance.  I will admit that my original example on multi-tiered greens is not universally an unfair situation.  But few circumstances in golf are universal.  There will always be exceptions to any rule.  So I will clarify my position somewhat.  I think it is usually (but not always) unfair if you hit a green and a perfect putt will not keep you on the green.

Ed

[John Moore II]

I think that the only things that are 'unfair' are things like blind bunkers in the fairway on a course that gets mostly non-member play or blind doglegs and stuff like that. Those type things are unfair. Anything that if you hit a good shot leaves you with nothing at all, no play, out of bounds or something like that is unfair. Greens are not unfair, if you can't be on the right tier of a green, you just hit a poor shot, or are generally a poor player. Donald Ross greens are not unfair, if you manage to find one of his runnoffs, you hit a poor shot to get there. Very few times have I played a course where I thought it had shots that were unfair.

[ed_getka]

Bart,
   Thanks for clearing something up, I didn't realize you had never seen the course before. Was that large tier not noticeable from where you hit your approach shot?
   If you knew the course well my next thought would have been to point out that a top tier you speak of would be considered a "hazard" IMO (they just happen to mow it at green height).

Andy,
   I do happen to consider #11 CD fair, but it is certainly pushing the boundary. I think once you have to eliminate birdie thoughts altogether the hole has crossed into unfair territory. As is, #11 has a few pin positions where getting aggressive is suicide, but I can safely play that hole in bogey 8 out of 10 times I would estimate. You should have seen the all-world bogey I made from the back bunker to a back pin on on my last trip.  It is quite funny to see guys play the hole for the first time and make a 10 though. They simply cannot accept that they can't go right at the hole and they pay the price.
   I'm a bit of a homer at this point about CD so I am willing to accept that my judgement is clouded. I do know that I could caddy a first-timer around that course at least 10 shots lower than they could do on their own. There is just so much to know and learn about the course that someone could go out there for the first time and get eaten alive and come to the conclusion that the course is unfair. As someone pointed out above, in the end it is just personal opinion. There are no objective measures for this kind of stuff.

Ed:  In fact, at the Fazio course at Treetops, the lower tier is blind from the fairway...it is the back part of the green!  Obviously, the play is to simply blast the ball to or over the back of the green....hitting a shot to the front will either stop on top or roll completely over the back ...same if you hit the downslope between the tiers.  Oh well, like you said the higher tier in this case basically acts as a hazard...and to me, making the green a hazard classifies as "unfair"...

Interesting thread,

Bart

Bart,
   I find this hole you are describing intriguing. If you fly a shot to the back/lower tier, how often would you expect it to hold the green? I have never seen a green with a reverse tier that was so high that a ball would run down it and gather so much speed that it would run off. Granted, I have only seen a couple of reverse tier greens as it is (most prominently on #14 at Bandon Trails) and I really liked them, but it doesn't sound like I would like the one at Treetops.

Johnny M,
   I don't think you necessarily have to hit a poor shot to get yourself in a bad postion. One can take too aggressive a line where only a perfect shot has a chance of success. So missing that line by a few feet isn't really a poor shot it was just poor course management that got the "unfair" result.
   I think if we would really look at the hole we consider unfair, there is most likely a way to play the hole. Sometimes it just takes a few cracks at it to figure it out.

[Andy Troeger]

Ed,
Its certainly an interesting question, there isn't much of a line between the crazy and fabulous with this kind of stuff. One play on #11 wasn't enough for me to make any fair determination. I made a 2 my first time not knowing what awaited at the green...could be pretty gruesome if I get to try it again!  

Overall though I think a few trips around CD would improve my score dramatically at least from my front nine 47! I might not shoot another 38 on the back very often. I had a buddy who guaranteed me I wouldn't break 80 despite the lack of length and it being a par 70. Since I was +10 after 7 holes he wouldn't have had to hold his breath...

I would tend to agree though, the hole isn't unfair, but it pushes the boundary of what can reasonably expected of the golfer for sure.

[Bart Bradley]

Bart,
   I find this hole you are describing intriguing. If you fly a shot to the back/lower tier, how often would you expect it to hold the green? I have never seen a green with a reverse tier that was so high that a ball would run down it and gather so much speed that it would run off. Granted, I have only seen a couple of reverse tier greens as it is (most prominently on #14 at Bandon Trails) and I really liked them, but it doesn't sound like I would like the one at Treetops.

Ed:  I really don't know but would guess only a small chance of holding the back tier.  Obviously, when the pin is on the front (high) tier it is a much different situation.

Bart

[Tom_Doak]

Just try substituting the word "stupid" for "unfair" and I think there will be no disagreement.

[ed_getka]

Bart,
   From what you are indicating it would seem the hole is unfair/stupid to me. If you end in the front of the green, your 1st putt will roll off the green. If you land in the back there is a small chance of holding the green. If there are no reasonable options, which in this case it sounds like there aren't, then I would say the hole is unfair.

[JC Jones]

#11 at CD carries the rule that most of the other holes carry:

STAY BELOW THE HOLE

So, there are options.  In order for a hole to be "stupid/unfair," it has be be a hole where there arent any options.

The one and only time I played CD, the pin was back right and I hit it 5 feet past the hole.  Thankfully, it was fall, and my putt hit a leaf, stopping it right next to the hole.  Almost a great 2, but a VERY lucky 3.

[Andy Troeger]

JC,
The reason I mentioned #11 is the slope in front of the green. A back pin gives most of the green to stay below, but a front pin means either your distance is correct, the ball potentially rolls down the slope short (which doesn't seem like disaster, but its not easy) or go long and start the party  

I think its fair, but it does push the envelope (which is good once in awhile).

PS: The way you wrote it there's only one option...stay below the hole!

[ed_getka]

Andy,
   There are actually more options to a front pin on #11. Go for the pin (not a good idea). Miss short right in the rough which gives you the length of the lower shelf to work with and the added benefit of a backstop of sorts that the ball won't roll off of. Or just come up short of the green and you can putt or chip up the slope and give yourself a chance to make par. Any of these options, besides the first, is a good  approach that is likely to keep a big number from happening.      
     What usually happens is someone gets above the hole and then putts off the green, then they are aggravated and try to get a stroke back by being too precise, oftentimes coming up a little short which leads to them playing the same shot they just failed at, then they hit the next one long, then putt off the green...... And pretty soon you have a 10.

[Andy Troeger]

Ed,
Certainly true, but you're just describing multiple ways to hit it short of the green. Admittedly the rough short right would be a different recovery, but one has to decide whether to go for it or take your chances chipping and putting--not a bad option as you say. We're splitting hairs a bit trying to say whether "short" is one option or whether you can divide it up into short in the fairway, short in the rough, etc.

I think its a perfectly fine hole in any case, just hard!

[ed_getka]

Andy,
   It is easy to say just keep it below the hole, but sometimes that is not so obvious. Thus I was illustrating a couple of ways of doing it for that particular hole. I would say I could make par 4 or 5 out of 10 tries by missing short right. If I hit it past the pin par is probably 1 in 10 at best. That would be by coming up short somehow and sinking the downhill putt for par.

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