[Dan Moore]

George,

Lawsonia's 7th is essentially as built.  The only change I can see from old aerilas and drawings is the absence of a small bunker to the left of the green in the hollow of the 3rd photo.  Same with Spring Valley.  Both courses have the advantage of having been left more or less alone over the years.  

As far as Banks and Langford, I had similar discussions with Ron Forse.  I am sceptical Banks is the source of the connection despite the fact he preceeded Langford at Yale.  Langford Moreau set up shop in 1918 and the first documented example of Langford design work is 1914.  This is well before Banks became involved with Raynor at Hotchkiss.  There is evidence of the MacRaynor look in their courses that pre-date Hotchkiss, eg Culver Academy.  I know Langford got involved in some of the Raynor work in the Palm Beach area but I'm not sure of the timing there.  Langford spent the winters in nearby Lake Worth and worked on Everglades and The Breakers.  Of course it is Likely Langford was familiar with Shoreacres and the redo of Chicago Golf if probably St Louis CC and the National.   Chicago saw quite a bit of Ross, Colt and Alison in the teens and early 20's so Langford may have been trying to distinguish his work, but that's pure speculation.  As a trained engineer it is not surprising he adopted the engineered look.  As an accomplished golfer it is also not surprising he was able to incorporate natural features and give the engineered features a more natural look by tying them in to the surroundings.  

[George_Bahto]

It's interesting that they may (may) have gone down different roads and come up with such similarities.

It seems more than coincidental - not that ir matters.

I was more impressed in the similarities of selecting green sites than anything else ......  seemingly, lots of plateaus cut into a hill

I'll post some Shorts that have a different setting in a little while

[George_Bahto]

Two drop shot short holes - Shoreacres' is about 45' down and the lost hole at Greenwich was probably about the same.

A note on the Shoreacres original bunkering though, the front bunker sed just about all the triangular area in front of the green as hazard. This picture is about 5 - 6 years old

Greenwich:


Shoreacres:

[Phil McDade]

Graves and Cornish, in "Classic Golf Hole Design," describe the following NLE par 3s as Shorts modeled after the Macdonald/Raynor Short template.

-- Timber Point, 12, Alison. (Wexler, in "Missing Links," lists it as 140 yards, and says it was the course's most memorable hole, played across the water to an elevated green completely surrounded by sand.  The picture depicts a large green and a real "do or die" feel to the hole -- essentially a green perched up on a sandbar surrounded by water.

-- El Caballero, 17, Bell and Thomas. Wexler lists it as 115 yds. but suggests it played as short as 95, with the shot to a small and highly contoured green.

-- Meadowbrook Hunt Club, 10, Emmet. Wexler lists at 140 yds, and played to a green surrounded by bunkers, but also suggests it once may have been an island green. (On an earlier thread by Dan Moore about modern templates, I argued Dye's 17th at TPC is a modern version of a Short, with water replacing sand. Wexler says Emmet's 10th may have originally played shorter to an island green, a design scheme used by Dev.)

-- Boca Raton, 14, Flynn. Graves and Cornish say the link to a Macdonald/Raynor Short template is "tenuous;" Wexler lists it playing at 135 yds, near the standard yardage for a template Short. Fronted by bunkers, but not surrounded, according to the drawings in Lost Links.

-- Deepdale 8 (130 yds), Gibson Island 8 (157 yds), Lido 14 (148 yds), the Links at Roslyn 8 (150 yds), Shinnecock Hills (original) 3 (120 yds), all Macdonald/Raynor. The pictures in Missing Links show good detail on the Gibson Island Short, which along with the Lido's 14th seem to most closely follow the Short template standards of a somewhat perched-up, largish round green surrounded by sand.

[wsmorrison]

The 14th at Boca Raton South is a short hole, at only 129 yards, played West to East.  However, I don't see how this NLE could be considered a "Short Hole" modeled off of the Macdonald/Raynor template, which they modeled off of the original 5th at Royal West Norfolk.  Instead, it is based on an S curve, similar to the 5th at Indian Creek.  



Notice the interesting diagonal on the right side of the green.  Flynn would manipulate the toplines of the bunkers to make it appear that the bunkers are perpendicular to the line of play rather than along the diagonal, thus using perspective to obscure the significant distance differential.

Flynn designed a variation of the Redan hole (7th at Phila Country, 3rd at Huntingdon Valley and 7th at Shinnecock Hills) but not based upon Macdonald/Raynor or more accurately the original concept at North Berwick, which they based their templates upon.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Five Farms #4:


Black Creek #3:


Greenbrier (Old White) #18 in 1929:


present day (pics sent to me):


from roof:


Leatherstocking #12 (not my pic):


Teugega #7:




The Country Club #12 (kind of a volcano hole):

[Hunt]

St. Louis Country Club's Short Hole:
One of the toughest 18 HCP holes you'll find when a back pin is played.

[Carl Rogers]

Once I figure out how to post pictures, I will contribute to this thread with the 11th hole at Riverfront and the 4th hole at Sleepy Hole (12 minute trip from Riverfront).

[BCrosby]

Jeesh - This thread is an object lesson in why I need to buy a digital camera.

Dan Moore - Langford's 8th (it might be played as the 3rd now) at Culver is one of his prototypical shorts. It is cut into a bank with a severe drop off left.

Wayne - Flynn did a par 3 at Glenview (the 14th?) that looks very much like the hole drawing you posted. The greenside bunkers are deceptive in much the same way. I've always thought that a classic Flynn's feature was his use the brows of bunkers to hide green surfaces. Thereby messing with your depth perception.

Bob

[Scott_Burroughs]

Once I figure out how to post pictures, I will contribute to this thread with the 11th hole at Riverfront

#11 at Riverfront, as I posted a week ago in my Riverfront pics thread:

[RJ_Daley]

Scott, you da man wit da pix!    I'm particularly glad you had the before and after of Lester's work at GreenBrier.  I think he did well there.

My only contribution is Raynor's short drop shot 7th Blue Mound, looking something like the the drop shot one at Greenwich of George's collection...

[Joe Hancock]

RJ,

Do you know whether the green was originally mowed to the edges of the green pad? It looks odd with all the collar and apron that exists in that picture.

If it was mowed at green height on the entire pad, the pins could be pushed out to the edges and create a bit more peril and intimidation.

Joe

[RJ_Daley]

Joe, only a guess, but I'd say they were mowed out to the edges.  And, looking at the Redan at BM, I'd also say they were originally mowed out further.  It would seem they lost area to edges as a trade-in for cheaper-easier maintenance and running the apron cut mowers around the edges.  

As a side not and tribute to Hepner's restoration consulting work there, look at the redan photos on the other thread.  Would you believe that the sharp and high edge of the kick plate was lined with 3 or 4 maples right on the sharp edge, with about 4"diameter trunks!  What a difference getting rid of them and restoring the kick plate back edge made!  

Also, has Mike D done a classic short aside from that Mines pic, that you know of.  I think 16 KIngsley is a darn good tribute to the redan.

[Joe Hancock]

I don't have a good pic of Kingsley #2, but it's probably the best candidate of a short that Mike has done. I'll try to find a picture.

I can't believe there were trees on that ridge! Amazing what sometimes passes as a good idea.....

Joe

[Dan Moore]

Joe,  Happy to oblige

Kingsley #2




Bob,  I have a photo of Culver's 3rd/8th somewhere.  I'll try to post.  

[Joe Hancock]

Thanks, Dan. Nice picture!

Joe

[RJ_Daley]

Joe, I was there to see KC in person just prior to open.  We did play #2.  And, it is a very clever short hole.  It just isn't in the genre of the "classic" short that I think of in this whole lineage of MacRayBank ---> Langford Morreau.   There are plenty of very clever shorts in modern golf, that's for sure.  I put #11 Wild HOrse right up there, with midshort #17Sand Hills.  But, none of those has the classic look or feel to me.

[Joe Hancock]

I agree, RJ. It's just that this is likely as close to a classic "Short" as Mike has done. He's not a template kind of guy.....

Joe

[Mike McGuire]

RJ,

Do you know whether the green was originally mowed to the edges of the green pad? It looks odd with all the collar and apron that exists in that picture.

If it was mowed at green height on the entire pad, the pins could be pushed out to the edges and create a bit more peril and intimidation.

Joe

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,

Awesome! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

Give the man a beer.....

 

[RJ_Daley]

Joe, it is Packer Sunday, 1Pm, he already has had enough!  

[Mike McGuire]

Time to start RJ. Thanks for the reminder....GO PACK !

[Phil McDade]

Perhaps "Short" describes the Pack's effort tonight. Sad day in the nation's Dairyland.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I had forgotten all about the pics I took of Charles Banks'
Cavalier G&YC in Viriginia Beach, VA, though I didn't play it as
the course was closed due to soaking rains for the previous 2
days from a tropical storm off the coast of Viriginia.

The course was restored by Lester George a few years ago.

Here's the Short (I forget hole numbers), which is a
complete 'island' green surrounded by a 'sand moat':



it's built up pretty high:




the only access to the green, without walking through sand, is in the back:

[Dan Moore]

Thanks Scott, thats a pretty cool take on the short.

Here is another Langford Moreau from Culver Academies.  The hole originally had 3 surrounding bunkers and I have to assume a much larger green.

Culver Short


Lost bunker and green.  Imagine if the green on the right was recaptured.  That would be quite a green.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()