Is Ohio done, or was Ohio done?

[Glenn Spencer]

Ohio State was done and done good. Tigers #1

Tiger,

Yes. From a Hurricane to a Tiger. Thank you. You are now officially off the hook for the 40-3 pounding that you administered on us.

[PThomas]

would be interesting to see an Open at MV Glenn,,,those greens, let the rough get Open height, etc..

course it would help if the course would play hard but even Jack can't seem to stop the rain during his tounament each year

[Phil McDade]

Glenn:

I, too, lament the demise of majors in Ohio, having grown up in northeastern Ohio and attended the '73 PGA at Canterbury. Ohio had a remarkable run of majors from 1957 (it hosted both the Open and PGA that year, the PGA at Miami Valley in Dayton and the last year of match play) through '79, when Inverness last hosted the US Open. I counted nine majors plus the Ryder Cup in those 23 years, roughly one out of every 2+ years, maybe the most that any state enjoyed during that time span. It's hosted only two since then, both PGAs at Inverness.

I think two things happened. I think technology has played something of a role, along with what might be called the demands -- secondary courses, infrastructure related to big crowds, willingness of clubs to host such a big event -- of holding a major. I don't know specifically whether Ohio's classic-era clubs have been unwilling to expand/lengthen to meet today's technology demands, but many are somewhat land-locked and may simply not be willing to undertake that kind of expansion.

Secondly, both the USGA and the PGA especially made concerted efforts to change their course rotations starting @ 1980. The PGA really went after relatively new, longer courses -- Shoal Creek and Valhalla twice, Oak Tree, Kemper Lakes, Crooked Stick. That left the likes of Firestone and NCR on the sidelines. Secondly, the USGA -- notably with Shinnecock in '86 and Brookline in '88 -- made a very concerted effort (after drifting with course selection in the 1960s) to take the tournament to the country's very best, classic-era courses. And for the likes of Canterbury, my sense is that -- although it's a terrific course -- it just doesn't hold up against some of those courses as a US Open venue.

One other note: Ohio seems to have lacked a course developer (perhaps Muirfield is the exception, and Jack seems content with holding a PGA tour stop) who deliberately built a course with the aim of hosting a major. That's happened in Wisconsin, with Herb Kohler's Whistling Strats and Blackwolf Run courses, and now with the Erin Hills folks -- big places intended to host big crowds.

Having said that, Matt Ward's argument that Ohio is perhaps less deserving because of the annual tourneys at Muirfield and Firestone is, to put it mildly, quite specious. He's been arguing (with me, among others) that US Open sites ought to be determined based on merit, not geographic distribution. If an Ohio course is worthy of a major, it shouldn't have Muirfield and Firestone's events held against it.

Personally, I'd like to see the PGA return to Canterbury, with a similar attitude that the USGA took with Merion. You could play it close to 7,000 yards at a par of 70, and it's a "longer" course than perhaps the card indicates because its many doglegs force players to take something less than driver off the tee.

[Glenn Spencer]

would be interesting to see an Open at MV Glenn,,,those greens, let the rough get Open height, etc..

course it would help if the course would play hard but even Jack can't seem to stop the rain during his tounament each year

Yeah, it would be pretty cool. Can Ohio be dry in mid-June though? Yes, but it is risky. It is a one-course situation out there, but PLENTY of room and proven in the past. I wasn't thinking of MVGC, but starting to warm to the idea. Could be a great setting and challenge.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn:

I, too, lament the demise of majors in Ohio, having grown up in northeastern Ohio and attended the '73 PGA at Canterbury. Ohio had a remarkable run of majors from 1957 (it hosted both the Open and PGA that year, the PGA at Miami Valley in Dayton and the last year of match play) through '79, when Inverness last hosted the US Open. I counted nine majors plus the Ryder Cup in those 23 years, roughly one out of every 2+ years, maybe the most that any state enjoyed during that time span. It's hosted only two since then, both PGAs at Inverness.

I think two things happened. I think technology has played something of a role, along with what might be called the demands -- secondary courses, infrastructure related to big crowds, willingness of clubs to host such a big event -- of holding a major. I don't know specifically whether Ohio's classic-era clubs have been unwilling to expand/lengthen to meet today's technology demands, but many are somewhat land-locked and may simply not be willing to undertake that kind of expansion.

Secondly, both the USGA and the PGA especially made concerted efforts to change their course rotations starting @ 1980. The PGA really went after relatively new, longer courses -- Shoal Creek and Valhalla twice, Oak Tree, Kemper Lakes, Crooked Stick. That left the likes of Firestone and NCR on the sidelines. Secondly, the USGA -- notably with Shinnecock in '86 and Brookline in '88 -- made a very concerted effort (after drifting with course selection in the 1960s) to take the tournament to the country's very best, classic-era courses. And for the likes of Canterbury, my sense is that -- although it's a terrific course -- it just doesn't hold up against some of those courses as a US Open venue.

One other note: Ohio seems to have lacked a course developer (perhaps Muirfield is the exception, and Jack seems content with holding a PGA tour stop) who deliberately built a course with the aim of hosting a major. That's happened in Wisconsin, with Herb Kohler's Whistling Strats and Blackwolf Run courses, and now with the Erin Hills folks -- big places intended to host big crowds.

Having said that, Matt Ward's argument that Ohio is perhaps less deserving because of the annual tourneys at Muirfield and Firestone is, to put it mildly, quite specious. He's been arguing (with me, among others) that US Open sites ought to be determined based on merit, not geographic distribution. If an Ohio course is worthy of a major, it shouldn't have Muirfield and Firestone's events held against it.

Personally, I'd like to see the PGA return to Canterbury, with a similar attitude that the USGA took with Merion. You could play it close to 7,000 yards at a par of 70, and it's a "longer" course than perhaps the card indicates because its many doglegs force players to take something less than driver off the tee.

Phil,

Thank you for your quality response. I don't know if I lament it or not. I just don't like seeing clubs that got golf to where it is at, being passed up, if that is the case. Canterbury at 70 would be interesting to me. Change #13 and #4?

My question is now becoming, is relation to par more important than history?  Would you rather see even at Torrey or -13 at Canterbury or Worcester or another historic club. Maybe the Merion model will prove that the big ones can go back to the classics. I will say, if I am the PGA right now, I would have to take a long look at some of these clubs. Best way to differentiate yourself.

[Andy Troeger]

From what I got out of my one visit to The Golf Club, hosting majors is absolutely positively the opposite of what the club stands for which is having a members club for members (and not outside tournaments).

It would shock me if they reversed that any time soon. The golf course is good enough though.

[Phil McDade]

Glenn:

For sure 13, which plays as a par 5 of about 490 for members, I believe, and may have been reduced to a 460-yard par 4 for the '73 PGA (which played as a par 71 @ 6852 yds, and held up well; Jack went -7 to win, in his absolute prime, but only seven others broke par, and six of those were at -1 or -2). I thought #6 was the shortish par 5 on the front nine, playing to @ 500 yds for members. I think the back nine at Canterbury would make for a very interesting finish -- four par 4s under 400 yds, but a very tough finish of a 600+ yd par 5, a real brute of a 230+ par 3, and the heavily trapped, uphill 18th at @ 440-450. Good opportunities for both birdies and bogies down the stretch.

I like the majors being played at classic courses, particularly the Open, but I also like that the USGA sets up the Open as a very tough test, with a finish @ par or even above par. I think the PGA has more wiggle room -- it seems to have gone to a mix of classics (notably Oak Hill and WF in the last decade) and newer courses like WStraits (I'm admittedly biased there, but I think there is a role for the PGA moreso than the USGA to test out newer, major-worthy courses). I think it's fine if the PGA has scores ranging from near-par (Oak Hill played very tough when Micheel won there) or 10 or more under par. I especially think there's a role for the PGA every few years to take the major to a high-quality, lesser-tier, classic-era course like Canterbury where technology may have passed it by in terms of its ability to host the US Open (Aronimink, perhaps; Worchester is a good choice, back to Riveria if possible).

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn:

For sure 13, which plays as a par 5 of about 490 for members, I believe, and may have been reduced to a 460-yard par 4 for the '73 PGA (which played as a par 71 @ 6852 yds, and held up well; Jack went -7 to win, in his absolute prime, but only seven others broke par, and six of those were at -1 or -2). I thought #6 was the shortish par 5 on the front nine, playing to @ 500 yds for members. I think the back nine at Canterbury would make for a very interesting finish -- four par 4s under 400 yds, but a very tough finish of a 600+ yd par 5, a real brute of a 230+ par 3, and the heavily trapped, uphill 18th at @ 440-450. Good opportunities for both birdies and bogies down the stretch.

I like the majors being played at classic courses, particularly the Open, but I also like that the USGA sets up the Open as a very tough test, with a finish @ par or even above par. I think the PGA has more wiggle room -- it seems to have gone to a mix of classics (notably Oak Hill and WF in the last decade) and newer courses like WStraits (I'm admittedly biased there, but I think there is a role for the PGA moreso than the USGA to test out newer, major-worthy courses). I think it's fine if the PGA has scores ranging from near-par (Oak Hill played very tough when Micheel won there) or 10 or more under par. I especially think there's a role for the PGA every few years to take the major to a high-quality, lesser-tier, classic-era course like Canterbury where technology may have passed it by in terms of its ability to host the US Open (Aronimink, perhaps; Worchester is a good choice, back to Riveria if possible).

Phil,

Help me out. Isn't there room to stretch 18 at Canterbury along that fenceline? I really like the way you layed things out for the PGA. Just throw a classic in every once in a while.

[Brian Laurent]

It would be a shame for Ohio to be passed by for major championships...unfortunately, it seems as if our main contendors are either land-locked or so exclusive that they despise the attention.

I have heard a rumor that Scioto's recent renovations were the beginning of an attempt to attract an event in the near future.  I don't recall if it was a men's major, women's or possibly the Am...but I have heard they have been campaigning hand in hand with the Columbus Sports Commission.  Hopefully there is some truth to the rumor.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil McDade:

"... Matt Ward's argument that Ohio is perhaps less deserving because of the annual tourneys at Muirfield and Firestone is, to put it mildly, quite specious ..."

Phil, get real partner.

The argument made by Glenn was that Ohio has been left off the radar screen. Really? I almost pulled out my hanky to wipe the tears off my eyes given the deprivation Ohio faces.

You get EVERY YEAR two of the biggest events in golf. With TWO FIELDS in which you have all the key names -- you always have Tiger save for the year when he was returning from surgery.

One other thing -- I do agree with you that modern championship golf has become mega-sized in terms of the need for logistical aspects -- e.g., corporate tents, media compounds, various concessions, coordination of vast parking areas, etc, etc.

I don't see Canterbury having that king of capacity given what today's modern hosted major championship event is all about.

Phil, given the nature in how MV and Firestone can host contemporary events -- please knock yourself out and let me know what other OH site can provide equal or greater elements than the two courses I just mentioned -- that includes course quality and logistical elasticity? Take your time in deciding because you won't any real bonafide candidates.

Glenn:

In the world of golf there are only four majors as you well know.

Ohio is blessed to have EACH YEAR two events that draw two of the most top heavy fields IN ALL OF GOLF.

When you say Ohio is somehow left off the golf radar screen my answer to that is how do you come to that conclusion?

In regards to Scioto there's no doubt a host of clubs can hold a Walker Cup event -- possibly even a Ryder Cup event given the sheer downsize of those events when held against a US Open or PGA Championship.

Since we're on the subject -- have the other clubs you mentioned expressed an interest in staging such an event as the US Open or PGA Championship?

One other thing -- given Jack's event in Columbus and held at or right on top of Memorial Day weekend -- would the USGA consider staging its premier event in the shadows of Jack's?

I don't doubt all of the other USGA events -- Women's Open and Senior Open can be handled by the Ohio clubs that have been mentioned. The issue is that the competition for majors has really intensified and some of that is most certainly tied to modern realities in hosting such events now.

[Glenn Spencer]

Phil McDade:

"... Matt Ward's argument that Ohio is perhaps less deserving because of the annual tourneys at Muirfield and Firestone is, to put it mildly, quite specious ..."

Phil, get real partner.

The argument made by Glenn was that Ohio has been left off the radar screen. Really? I almost pulled out my hanky to wipe the tears off my eyes given the deprivation Ohio faces.

You get EVERY YEAR two of the biggest events in golf. With TWO FIELDS in which you have all the key names -- you always have Tiger save for the year when he was returning from surgery.

One other thing -- I do agree with you that modern championship golf has become mega-sized in terms of the need for logistical aspects -- e.g., corporate tents, media compounds, various concessions, coordination of vast parking areas, etc, etc.

I don't see Canterbury having that king of capacity given what today's modern hosted major championship event is all about.

Phil, given the nature in how MV and Firestone can host contemporary events -- please knock yourself out and let me know what other OH site can provide equal or greater elements than the two courses I just mentioned -- that includes course quality and logistical elasticity? Take your time in deciding because you won't any real bonafide candidates.

Glenn:

In the world of golf there are only four majors as you well know.

Ohio is blessed to have EACH YEAR two events that draw two of the most top heavy fields IN ALL OF GOLF.

When you say Ohio is somehow left off the golf radar screen my answer to that is how do you come to that conclusion?

In regards to Scioto there's no doubt a host of clubs can hold a Walker Cup event -- possibly even a Ryder Cup event given the sheer downsize of those events when held against a US Open or PGA Championship.

Since we're on the subject -- have the other clubs you mentioned expressed an interest in staging such an event as the US Open or PGA Championship?

One other thing -- given Jack's event in Columbus and held at or right on top of Memorial Day weekend -- would the USGA consider staging its premier event in the shadows of Jack's?

I don't doubt all of the other USGA events -- Women's Open and Senior Open can be handled by the Ohio clubs that have been mentioned. The issue is that the competition for majors has really intensified and some of that is most certainly tied to modern realities in hosting such events now.

Matt,

I will buy everything that you are saying. Does the Merion model work for Scioto, Canterbury and some others? I imagine the other courses have not expressed the interest. The question is about Ohio, but it is also about all of the classics. Do you ever see a point where the PGA goes to the Merion model. Sell less tickets at a higher price at a classic club? Maybe the decrease in foot traffic would lure a club into participating in taking on a major.

In other words, could Ohio GOLF COURSES, not facilities, host a major tomorrow with a different business model?

[Glenn Spencer]

Also, I am not in the "woe is us" camp. Unless I am crazy, until 1995, Ohio, NY, California, Penn and Illinois were the states that were famous for hosting majors. The other four are still maintaining, Ohio doesn't seem to be. My original questions still stands, is it done? It seems like it is.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ohio had a great run as Nicklaus was the man.  He has moved on and so should the state.  In my Opinion, Nicklaus had everything to do with the status Ohio once received.

[Glenn Spencer]

Ohio had a great run as Nicklaus was the man.  He has moved on and so should the state.  In my Opinion, Nicklaus had everything to do with the status Ohio once received.

John,

Isn't a little early to be tipping them back? Scioto and Canterbury? Columbus in 64, NCR in 69 benficiaries of Nicklaus? Scioto hosted an Amateur in 68, maybe, maybe there is a link there, but nothing else.

[Matt_Ward]

Glenn:

With all due respect -- you need to get this feeling that Ohio has been left in the dust.

That's rubbish.

Again, for the upteeeeenth time -- you have Jack's event and Firestone. Both are big time events -- likely after the majors themselves they are BOTH in the top ten.

They also have BIG TIME fields WITH NO OTHER THAN TIGER
A-L-W-A-Y-S in the field.

Glenn, name for me two other events - short of the majors themselves -- which can match what OHIO has with the two events now being hosted there?

Let me mention this idea of another "business model." Merion is the rare aberation -- frankly, when TCC balked at hosting the 2013 event there a were a few options for the USGA to consider. There's been plenty of lobbying for Merion to get another bite at the US Open apple -- much of that tied to the club's historic legacy. The USGA decided to lower the maximum ticket sales and we shall see how that all works out.

In most cases -- 99.99% of the time -- the gate turnout is a big deal and isn't surrendered. You see the same mentality with the NCAA Final Four -- no longer are the games played at a standard b-ball facility.

I don't doubt Canterbury, Scioto and NCR can handle the next tier of events -- e.g. Amateur, Women's and Senior's Open, etc, etc, -- but I don't see any of the aforementioned having the star power that Merion commands at the highest level of golf for an exception to be broadened to their respective cases.

Glenn -- count your chickens and be happy for the Buckeye State. Like I said name me another state in the USA in which you have no less than two PGA events that command such world class fields every year.

[Billsteele]

From my acquaintances who belong to Scioto, there is a strong sentiment among the members to go after a USGA event. The conventional wisdom is that an Amateur is the most realistic possibility, with the Scarlet at OSU being the second course for the stroke play portion of the tournament. It will be interesting how the new greens at Scioto are judged when they reopen for play this year.

JK-The sister course of Sand Ridge is Mayfield. This is a shotgun wedding. Mayfield was an older club with a declining membership, Sand Ridge is a newer club (and a very good Fazio golf course) that is hurt by the perception that it is in the middle of nowhere. While it is in the Cleveland area, Chardon is a haul from any locale. Thus, the merger was arranged to improve the financial prospects for both clubs. I have no idea how that has worked out. However, they seem to be targeted toward different audiences (Mayfield a more traditional country club, Sand Ridge a golf club which is set up as more of a retreat with a few cabins and spartan ammenities). Interestingly, the merger spurred all sorts of rumors concerning other clubs merging (including Canterbury partnering with Shaker Heights). So far, nothing more has happened.

[Evan Fleisher]

A quick follow-up to Bill's comments above...Mayfield and Sand Ridge are about 17 miles apart on the same road (more or less).  Mayfield is in South Euclid considered "in town"...and Sand Ridge is out in chardon in "the sticks".

Bill hit the model pretty much dead on the head...hang out at the pool with the fam at Mayfield...and if you want to play a serious round of golf head out to Sand Ridge.  I'm not saying that to degrade Mayfield...I've played both courses and enjoyed them both, but for different reasons.  Sand Ridge is certainly the more "stern" test of golf.

[Jason McNamara]

Is there anything of caliber in the Cincinnati area?

Valhalla, apparently.

[Billsteele]

Jason-I wonder how the people of Louisville (such as our own John Mayhugh) feel now that they are a part of greater Cincinnati?

[Jason McNamara]

Jason-I wonder how the people of Louisville (such as our own John Mayhugh) feel now that they are a part of greater Cincinnati?

I drove through Louisville on my way to and from grad school in Bloomington, so please understand I don't agree with the proposition.  Just because there's an Skyline Chili stand there doesn't mean it's part of Ohio!

But just as Phil Benedict pointed out Oakland Hills to the north, Valhalla to the south poses a similar problem for Ohio golf fans.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

So long as people in Ohio think of KY as part of their territory you can include Valhalla.

[David Whitmer]

I'm from Cincinnati, and while we're obviously not talking about Ohio, we're fortunate to have a major venue 90 minutes away (Valhalla) and another two hours away (Crooked Stick, should another major go there). Throw in Muirfield Village and Firestone, and we certainly are not deprived of great professional golf to watch.

To directly answer Glenn's question, however...I have no idea when another men's major might be played in Ohio, but I fear it won't be any time soon. That's not sour grapes, just a realistic conclusion. Besides...who among us wouldn't want a major championship to be played in our home state?

[michael_j_fay]

I would love to see an event that uses four Columbus courses, Scioto, the Golf Club, Muirfield Village and Double Eagle.

I think the Architecture would be appreciated and an event of this nature would test all the players.

[JLahrman]

I'm in Cincinnati/Dayton and it doesn't make that much difference to me.  We did have the US Senior Open a few years ago at NCR (that may have been brought up already), and the Publinx at Shaker Run a couple of years ago as well.  I like the courses around here although I don't think any could host a major, and hopefully none of them start changing things with that in mind.

[Jason Connor]

I agree with Matt.  Name another state that gets two great fields every year.

Firestone & Muirfield Village guarantee two top fields every year.

As a golf fan, I'd rather have those two events every year than maybe get a Major every 5 years.