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Tony Ristola

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Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2008, 06:44:35 AM »
Mark,

Back in the early 80's Pelz discussed the then cutting edge stats he'd accumulated in Golf Magazine. It was pretty simple: The better players missed their short irons short and long; distance control was their problem (hence the introduction of the three wedge system). They missed their longer clubs left and right. Jim Simons and Tom Kite were among the first to benefit from his wedge-distance control work.

The average guy? He's all over the park.

"As for what Jeff calls "winging it", I'll let Pete Dye respond:
So we get it all roughed in there and looking pretty much like a golf course.  And I put together a B-4 or B-5 bulldozer, and that costs maybe $100. So, I go in there and on the sixth green or the sixth hole or whatever it is, I say look, you ought to do this, do that and say it takes him two days, so he spends $2,000.  So if I spent $2,000 on every hole, that’d be $36,000 on a $6 million project.  In the mean time, these guys that do drawings that are to the inch, they get so many stakes out there, it takes the bulldozer operator five times as long to get it done, as opposed to me just showing them.  I’ll do it quickly myself, and show them.  And then they all argue back and forth or whatever it is, and a lot of times when they do it again, it looks better then I ever imagined."
http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=782

Underwatering:
I grew up on a course without fairway irrigation. I've also built a couple without it that have cool season grasses. During periods of drought the leaf may die (turn brown), but the roots are still alive... and waiting. After the drought period, the course greens up just fine.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 07:32:36 AM by Tony Ristola »

TEPaul

Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2008, 08:35:00 AM »
MikeY:

Yes, I've done the math like you did.

I went to one of those $30,000 monitors like you did and they sold me the same club you mentioned telling me I was launching it at 108 mph at 11 degrees at a 156mph ball speed and carrying it 255 and falling at 40 degrees and rolling out to 280.

Then I took it back to my club and played with it but at GMGC my swing speed was my normal 82mph launching at 4 1/2 degrees with a ball speed of 98mph, a carry of 187 with a fall degree of 17 and a rollout to 214.

And those stats I just mentioned at GMGC I really swung outta my shoes and flushed it on the upswing!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2008, 09:26:04 AM »
Dr. Pythagoras Jeff,

Apologies for this scatter-shot (wide angle? wide ranging? dispersed?) post...

Three sets of questions:
1. How can we discuss angles without knowing who we're talking about?  Isn't the utility of angles a function of the shot-dispersal patterns of the golfer?

I'm curious to know, do designers take into account data such as these from Dave Pelz:



This actually is for par 3s, but extrapolating (uh oh) to approach shots on par 4s, it looks to me like angles don't matter to some (0s and 20s), matter potentially to some (tour pros), and matter a lot to the rest (10s -- unlabeled but I think they're the yellow-green teardrop -- and 30s).

To design for the pros, it looks like you might need firm and fast because with that dispersal pattern plus short game they likely are to go right at the flag every time.  It's hard to see how angles ever matter, though. (Freak-tiny greens?!)

On the other hand, it looks like 10s and 30s could use some serious width to enable them to play to their personal Position A given "teardrop" shot dispersion patterns.  For example, those 10s: a green that's covered front and right, they are going to have to position themselves for an approach from wayyyy left, yes? *Assuming misses still hurt -- that's Question 2 below...

Maybe courses aren't wide enough to accommodate these dispersal patterns?

And given that these teardrops mirror each other, doesn't it stand to reason that if you designed for one group's angles (e.g., lots of openings front-right) the other group could say legitimately that angles don't matter?

2. Is golf still a game of misses, and do misses determine the validity of angles?  (I can see where it no longer is so much at the Tour level, but what kind of price does the 10 pay these days for a miss?

3. Is it possible that angles don't come into play because courses aren't designed to allow for them?  I can see your point about "angle limits" for shots such as those on cape holes.  But angles still matter there, right?

Are greens built big enough to allow for great variety of hole locations?  For angles to matter, don't you need more than firm and fast, in particular pins shunted off to the edges of the greens?

Working back to the tee, with big greens don't you also need enough width to account for golfers' games and their assessments of their games?

Mark

Mark,

I read that chart as angles don't matter to tour pros, but do matter to scratch players as they still tend to come up just a bit short on average shots, meaning avoiding a frontal bunker still has some value for them.

I am still having trouble figuring out why 30 handicappers miss short and left.  Can anyone help on that one?

Back to the scratch player -Basically, they will miss about 7% any direction.  The 20 handicapper will miss (according to USGA slope charts) about 8% wide either way and about 1.5 times that, with the extra being short.  

This chart is similar to USGA stats, but also shows total dispersion, while the USGA Slope chart measures 2 out of every 3.  I have never figured out what it would take green size wise to get 3 out of every 4 golfers on a green, but this graphic helps!  For 4 out of 4 20 handicappers, I always figured a green the size of, say, Delaware, would be required!

Given that the required green size to move cups around is closer to the 20 handicapper green size, and that getting closer to the pin is always an advantage for the scratch player, we size most greens about to the play of the 20 handicapper, using a "Sunday Pin" for challenging better players and presuming the super will set the course up about 1/3-1/3-1/3 most days.

Sometimes, on the longest par 3 and 4, I will design a small green across the line of play, to match the tour pro configuration shown above, figuring the handicap player isn't getting there anyway, to challenge long iron play of better players. And, on a few greens per course, I will downsize all dimensions somewhat for more overall approach challenge, while increasing a few for an easier approach. (often after a difficult tee shot)

Of course, all of this is more based on target size than angles.  Those tear drops do suggest (sadly) leaving out any bunkers 20-50 yards short of the green, since they affect the wrong players and slow play.  And it confirms what we have discussed here before - bad players can't use strategy as much or at all because they don't know where the ball is going.  Yes, there may actually be some strategies based on them knowing they have to lay up to the correct side of the green, and its possible to plan for these, or to plan for the better player and figure the smart average player will figure out his best spot to miss short.

TEPaul,

Are you on the right thread?

Tony,

No need to defend your method. I have already stated there are different ways to skin a cat.  Results certainly matter, and Pete has gotten some good ones.  He has also had his greens at TPC rebuilt several times because they were unplayable by the worlds best.  At least part of that, I am told by the players that consulted, was that he didn't leave effective enough landing areas for them.

Also, I have heard Pete go on at great length about his "forumulas" for covering greens with bunkers, % of slope in pin areas, etc.  Just more proof to me that math does matter, mostly in playability, because none of us can overcome physics, while the final flare must be intuition.

Thats the great thing about gca - as they say, it really is a blend of art and science.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Bourgeois

Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2008, 10:46:08 AM »
Jeff,

Good that you brought that up.  I found the progression odd, too:
30s -- "left-hand" teardrop
20s -- blotch
10s -- "right-hand" teardrop

Could it be that 30s are more likely to slice, pull and hit "heelers" than 20s?  That 20s have worked out some of those problems but introduced the problems of "better" players at the same time, so that their balls go everywhere?  And finally that 10s have learned to hit the ball inside-out so that's why they get a right-hand teardrop?

That's a good catch on the 0s -- but isn't it weird how their dispersal pattern is oriented along the lines not of 10s but of 30s? Is this just a function of them knowing to hit away from those bunkers along the right?

And lastly, what if this were a par 4: wouldn't you want to open up a huge "Position A" wayyy over to the left to allow both 30s and 10s "find" the smartest approach angle?  You still can slot those bunkers short, but give a thinking golfer the opportunity to go around it.

Maybe that would work best only in a private club, where golfers have enough time to learn the route that works best for them.

And I agree totally: Tom Paul's ID apparently has been hijacked by a random-post generator...

Mark

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THE MATH?
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2008, 11:34:47 AM »
Mark,

Still not sure on the theory of misses (or the theory of the Missus, which is why I am divorced, but no need to take Greg's thread that far OT! ::)) Actually, your graphic is in some ways, bringing it back on topic.

Two questions -

1. When trying to accentuate the word "way" should it be "wayyyyyyyy" or "waaaaaaaaY" to the left side?

2. Should the strategy be designed according to projected misses or attempted makes?  

It seems to me that opening up virtually every hole to the left doesn't make much sense, just because the scratch and 30 players seem to miss front left.

It really should be a balance or playing angles, right, left, straight on, and in one or two cases, maybe fully covered up all the way across the front.  At least, IMHO.  Asking a player who is likely to miss left to hit a left to right shot is fair game, even if its likely his miss will be more punished in this case.  In general, the other players will be punished more heavily in other cases to balance things out.

As I was driving in to work, it struck me again how it would be nearly impossible for me to ignore good data on how my courses actually function while designing.  Of course, art is good, too, because nearly all golfers enjoy that aspect of the course, whether they can quantify it or not.

It also struck me that in this discussion of angles, how much that data argues for dumbing down or at least reducing play angles of most greens to nearly along the line of play.

First, all of these design theories on green width, etc. are based on the presumtion (on a par 4) that everyone hits to the prescribed spot. Most don't, with more coming up short than long.  If, in theory,  you want to allow the short hitter to still be in the hole, you would probably widen the frontal opening out AND reduce the green angle to allow a shorter hitter in the fw to have a shot.

Second, for Tour Players, hazards left and right, rather than in front, come more into play.  And, sharply angled greens affect them less, as well. The difference between scratch and 20's is the area of miss, but its not so different, I suppose on a well played shot by a 20 vs. the scratch - they just don't hit it well as often - and its hard to figure the big 20 miss in when planning strategy.

Taken together, both suggests lateral hazards make for the most balanced play among different types of players, explaining why carry bunkers have been reduced in modern design in favor of lateral bunkers.  Lateral bunkers tend to challenge better players more and affect average players less.......

BTW, Pete Dye's basic theory of how much to cover green fronts is "Short Shot - 2/3, Medium Shot, 1/2, Long Shot, 1/3.  That rule of thumb is actually about right for balancing basic math with Pete's (and Tony's) intuition.  

I recall both KN having much more detailed formulas for green angles, frontal openings, etc.  I recently saw a copy of almost identical forumulas from gca William Mitchell, and the gent who shared them recalled being fascinated by the fact that Mitchell could tell "exactly" how wide a green should be from his formula!

I can understand RJ and others being fearful of how that might lead to average design, if followed that closely. I know KN didn't, not sure about Mitchell.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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