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Russell Lo

Mauna Kea
« on: March 25, 2002, 04:30:07 PM »
Played Mauna Kea last Wednesday  8) and had a blast. Wind was blowing 15-30 and fairways and greens were rolling like lightning. Loved the course as many of the approaches were uphill, yet many approaches would have been better if I had bump-n-runned it.

I thought it was a great test, even from the middle tees, yet on Saturday I spoke with a Golf Course Agronomist who has worked extensively in Hawaii, Japan and now many other parts of Asia, and he hated it. He said his wife found it utterly too difficult and in re-reading Doak's Confidential Guide, he remarks on the same point.

I know Alice Dye was a great proponent of making the course interesting and fun from the forward tees, but is it a fair knock on courses if they are fun and interesting for a mid-handicapper like me but not for someone playing off of the forward tees?

Are there any "great" courses that are actually great for the majority of players?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2002, 04:43:43 PM »
Wasn't Mauna Kea designed by RTJ, Sr? Did Alice Dye come back and do work with the forward tees?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mauna Kea is one big question mark to me
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2002, 05:59:06 PM »
Russell,

Mauna Kea has always intrigued me and I hope to get there someday before too long.

What are the (other) pros and cons of its design? How good are its finest holes? How indifferent are its weaker ones? Just how hilly is the property? Can you walk it? Surely it must be a beautiful place?

Some of the elevated greens that I've seen look to be very tough targets, especially in any wind.

I have heard SUCH conflicting reports - some say the course has been dumbed down to others who say it is too hard  :-/

I don't suppose you took any pictures that you could share, did you?

Cheers for any more info/insight.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2002, 07:51:59 PM »
I first played Mauna Kea in 1966 and won a tournament with Chi Chi Ridriguez. Absolutely loved the place then and now. Great architecture, doubtful. Great test of your game, absolutely. Too many elevated greens and some severe puting surfaces but if you cannot enjoy a round here then you have to be a  Savaronola.

The course is five shots easier than when it first opened. The faiways have been widened protecting the golfer from the horrendous lava. The hotel for years was the best resort in the world, but went into a bit of a decline some ten or twelve years ago. It still has not returned to its  pre-eminence when run by Rockresorts.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2002, 08:47:04 PM »
Bob,
 Savaronola?  A little help for the language impaired please. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2002, 09:37:43 PM »
Mauna Kea and Princeville are the two best courses on
all the Hawaiian islands, followed quickly by Kapalua Plantation.  Enjoy!!! :) :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2002, 04:54:30 AM »
Paul, What is it about the design at Mauna Kea and Princeville that you find more appealing than The Plantation Course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2002, 05:41:06 AM »
First of all, this is not a resort layout.  From the back tees especially, it is a tough test of golf, just what you would expect from RTJ Senior.  What he built here is simply amazing.  The golf course sits on what was once a lava flow that spilled into the ocean.  Most of the soil is finely processed lava!

There are several blind landing areas which you would not expect on a resort layout (but they're only blind once).  The course has a great collection of par threes, some very strong par fives and a number of interesting par fours.  It's a hilly property and would be difficult to walk.  There is plenty of width off the tees and the greens are quite contoured including a wicked false front on #18.  When the wind is blowing you need to manage the flight of your golf ball.  

Despite the difficulty, my wife who played with me one day, loved it if only for the views!  She plays off 36 and managed to get around just fine from the forward tees.  

Is it the best in the state, no.  The Plantation Course is my favorite but Mauna Kea is right behind!  A solid 7 in my book!
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2002, 05:57:31 AM »
A note bout Mauna Kea is that very little of the lava is visible any more, as tall grasses, with a heath-like look have long since grown around the course.  I found it to be resort-y, with some obvious good holes.  Back left pin placement on #3 would be dastardly.  Certainly #9 is not a typical resort hole, with the landing area (the entire hole, if I recall) blind from the tee (or at least the back tee).  Plenty of pretty vegetation around the course, giving it a resorty look.  Not bad, but Princeville is much better.

If you want to see Mauna Kea soon after it opened, with all the lava glory (and no housing), watch the Big Three Golf (in B&W) held there, shown on The Golf Channel.

I haven't been to Maui to play Kapalua.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2002, 07:11:58 AM »
Remember Scott, we have to focus on what is "inside" the golf course, and not as much as what is around it or you'll get accused of not studing the architecture and placing too much emphasis on asthetics  ;)

The Prince Course is a wonderfull golf course as well.  In line with his father, it is a very challenging test of golf.  The views are superb and the hole designs and green complexes are clever but it is clearly built for the better golfer.  One slight mental error and you not only lose a shot, you lose your golf ball.   I rate it right up there with Mauna Kea but still behind The Plantation Course.  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2002, 08:25:16 AM »
Ed Getka:

Savaronola was a 15th century Roman Catholic monk who railed against the excesses of the Church, Popes, Bishops and other corrupt clergy. He was responsible for ridding Florentine life of much beauty.. The Bonfire of the Vanities comes to mind. He was a bit of a prig really and wished to restore the church back to its pristine beginnings, almost like we do here in the GCA.

It was a losing battle, he was burned at the stake at the end of the 14th century.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2002, 09:22:08 AM »
I played Mauna Kea about 2 years ago and have stated on this site (IMHO) is the most overrated course in the world.  Its really a 1 hole course #3 with #11 being another pretty good par 3.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2002, 09:25:16 AM »
Bob

A "15th Century monk" who was burned at the stake at the end of the "14th Century."  I knew European religious history was hard to comprehend, but............
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RandyC

Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2002, 09:42:38 AM »
Although it's been years since I played it, I thought it became pretty monotonous with all the elevated greens. I bought the yardage guide as a souveneir and most holes suggested "take an extra club and a half for the elevated green." Good course, not great.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2002, 09:43:22 AM »
Rich:

Goddam it Rich, what's a century here and there? I was going to write he died in 1493, then again it could have been 1497, not being sure, I used century. Wait until you transpose something in your next post, I shall be merciless.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Russell Lo

Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2002, 01:02:09 PM »
Mauna Kea is hardly a one shot wonder. The 3rd is the most famous hole, but all of the par 3s are pretty good. 2 play into the wind at 170-185 yds and like most of the holes play to an elevated green. The 11th plays 181 from the middle tees, looks right into the Pacific and plays downwind and downhill. With a severe back to front slope a misclubbed shot is a sure 3 putt.

Most of the greens are elevated and huge. Getting it on is no sure 2 putt as the grain in the Bermuda is very strong. There isn't a lot of undulation, but that's what makes it even more difficult. I had 2 putts within 6 feet that wound up as 3 putts.

The short holes are also pretty tricky. #13 for instance plays to 323 from the middle tees yet the green sits 15-20 ft higher than the fairway. The green sits between a couple of hills and the wind funnels through this gap. You can't tell how strong the wind is from the fairway because you barely feel it. From 85 yds I took an approach wedge that got knocked down like an Hakeem Olajuwon blocked shot. I barely reached the green and almost 3 jacked from there. #16 is a 396 yd dogleg right with a fairway bunker on the left (outside of the dogleg) and 2 deep bunkers at the front of the shallow (looking) green. The difficulty with this hole is that the approach plays downwind and downhill to a flat horizon. Most times you will underclub and fly into the bunker or overclub and fly the green. Best shot is the bump and run in between the two front greenside bunkers even though the wind at your back is trying to convince you to fly it to the hole.

Compared to the Prince and Plantation, Mauna Kea is very intimate and on the card, short. However when it blows like it did the day I played there, it was a beast. I would have been better off playing some approaches as runners, even with the elevated greens than trying to fly it to the hole.

You can barely see the lava nowadays, go to Mauna Lani, Waikoloa Kings or Beach or Hapuna and Hualalai for that. Instead the grasses coming out of the lava devour balls.

What most impressed me about the course is the rhythm that RTJ put into it. The 1st is a short dogleg right, with an approach dead into the tradewinds. The 2nd is a short downhill dogleg left (fairly easy birdie). Then comes the famous par 3 3rd. While you're trying to catch your breath he kills you with the uphill, upwind 4th (par 4) and 5th (par 5). the 6th plays downwind to a wide open fairway giving you a rest after the last 3 holes then the 7th is an uphill, upwind par 3. Tha back 9 is much more subtle and requires thinking even as the wind is beating you up.

Even for locals the price is pretty steep and I wouldn't recommend walking at all since it is quite hilly and spread apart. It is truly a test when the wind blows but I think the "resortiness" and price will affect many people's view of the course.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2002, 01:42:13 PM »
I think Mauna Kea is my favorite course, just because it is so incredibly cool to look at, and because almost every shot is exciting and memorable. I didn't really look at the finer architectural points...it's so fun, and I just wanted to enjoy it. For a few pictures, go to:

http://students.ou.edu/C/Matthew.A.Cohn-1/courses/mk/mk.html

The hole I labeled the 7th is actually the 6th.

As for Mauna Kea being resorty, I don't think that's bad. I Resorty means green, plush, beautiful...those can all be great. Chicago GC shouldn't try to be Mauna Kea, and Mauna Kea shouldn't try to be Chicago.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2002, 03:27:35 AM »
Matt:

Well said.  

I too love Mauna Kea.  I also love Chicago GC.  They are
vastly different, but both wonderful.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2002, 06:37:00 PM »
i didnt like mauna kea when i played it 4 years ago.it seemed to always be going uphill.but....it is one of those rare courses that i cant get out of my mind(like carnoustie)so many courses are just  a lot of repetitive eye candy.isnt it more important in the long run that the course is compelling enough to remember
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wdaspin

Re: Mauna Kea
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2002, 04:42:33 PM »
I have played Mauna Kea several times, almost always playing 36 holes.  I like to get there before 7am and get on before the hotel guests start showing up.  You can play in 3-3.5 hours and then come in for a little refreshment before starting round 2.  The $25 replay helps average down your cost considering the first 18 will run you $175.

RTJ designed many of the holes with raised (and I mean raised) greens.  Take an extra club or two and be humble.  The putting surfaces are very grainy and fast.  There are so many memorable holes.  #3 of course, but also 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 17, 18.  One of the great tests in the Islands along with the Prince and Plantation courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »