[Dan Moore]

Geoff Shackelford raised the following question in the context of a discussion with Geoff Ogilvy about shotmaking skills having been lost due to soft greens.  

I have often wondered why greens aren't covered at big events to maintain firm conditions.  Why let overnight rain ruin conditions.  Is it any more of an intrusion than watering greens and fairways or the hundred of other manmade modifications to nature involved in setting up a tournament course?  I don't think so.  

What do you think.  Should greens be covered at night during tournaments or not?  


From Geoff's Website:  
"What if a course, in a quest to present firm greens for a championship, were to cover their greens at night the way a baseball crew covers the infield during a rain delay?

Is this an artificial intrusion, or simply a clumsier method of doing what the Sub-Air systems accomplish at courses with the system installed?"

[Joe Hancock]

I always thought a golfer's ability to adapt to changing conditions was a skill. Apparently, the only skill that matters is being able to display skill on firm greens.

I don't care for the idea.

Joe

[Mike Salinetti]

I don't believe there is a superintendent in the world who would consider covering their greens for a overnight rain  during a tour event. Most tour events are played in fairly warm climates. Usually with rain there is humidity. Can you imagine what those greens would look like the next day or two after you rolled the cover off of a green that had a big tarp over it. I'd say dead.

[Dan Moore]

For sake of discussion lets assume you could arrange a tent like apparatus that would permit airflow and maintain greens in good health.

I'll take the firm greens over dart throwing contests as a measure of skill and shotmaking anyday.  Having seen the two most recent major championships in Chicago negatively affected by soft greens, I'm for it.  

[John Moore II]

I do think that a tent type area would be a fair idea. To keep the greens dry. However, that would also require changing the entire course set up, since if the ball is rolling less in the fairway, you are hitting longer irons into hard greens, some of which are not designed to hold long iron shots. Its a fair idea, just not practical

[Craig Sweet]

Golf is a sport played in all (mostly) conditions and this idea seems to go against the "spirit of the game"....

[S. Huffstutler]

Why don't we just play it indoors. Jeez.


steve

[Jim Thompson]

Never!  The game is played in nature. So you gotta take whatever you get.  Whats next, we gonna have 'em play in a dome?  It is a game and should be played as such.  If course conditions were kept in tune with nature, everything would be firm and a rain day wouldn't be that big a deal.  Instead, man tries to make things perfectly fair and consistent.  Again the arrogance of man strikes.

[Mark_Fine]

Dan,
One of my pet peeves is firm greens and soft approaches.  I know what you are getting at but I would not be in favor of it.
Mark

[Phil McDade]

I do think that a tent type area would be a fair idea. To keep the greens dry. However, that would also require changing the entire course set up, since if the ball is rolling less in the fairway, you are hitting longer irons into hard greens, some of which are not designed to hold long iron shots. Its a fair idea, just not practical

Not necessarily -- in firm and fast conditions, a prudent player might want to take less than driver off the tee to make sure the ball stays on the fairway, rather than bounding off into the rough. Soggy courses to me really reward brute strength and length, because those players have less chance of their tee shots rolling out into trouble. They just aim and wait for the plug.

[paul cowley]

I would either play the greens as they lie....or play the tournament on the green cover...they can custom make them, and they are fast and firm, and water sheds off.

A little morning touch up with a blower, and whalah....you've been blown.

[Dan Moore]

Mark is tright soft appraoches would be a problem and would defeat some of the intent of maintaining f/f.  That was a real problem at Whistling Straits last year in the Senior Open.  I guess the tents will need to also cover the approach areas.  

For those who think this goes against nature should we also tear out the irrigation system or at least mandate it not be used for the weeks leading up to the tournamemt so we play in what nature provides.  I see this as another maintenance tool to provide the best conditions at the time of play.  If its raining and windy when play is on so be it.  

Phil is right.  Look at what Tiger did to Medinah in soft conditions.  

[kevinT]

Dan,

First of all.....I would love for you to work on a golf course maintenance staff for 4 weeks before an event during and 4 weeks after the event and see how tired you are.  There is enough to prepare for let alone putting up tents over greens.  Why stop at covering greens and approaches?  Why don't we cover the fairways too.......why should the ball plug in the fairway and bounce across the green?  COME ON!!! Come back to reality......this is not a baseball game.  

And for the comment about ripping out the irrigation system....it is in place to provide HEALTHY turf conditions so the playing surfaces are at their best and so we can provide your "tournamament conditions".  Try this out....sleep with your head under a couple of blankets so no air gets in for about 12 hours and see how difficult it is to breath under there.........that is what would happen to the grass.

[Dan Moore]

I did work on a course maintenance team once for several months between undergrad and grad school.    Lousy hours, very hard work, I really enjoyed it.  But it was hell trying not to leave tire marks in the overwatered fairways while making turns with the big fairway mower.  

I didn't say rip out the irrigation system, it was simply a rhetorical question for those who think we should live with the whims of nature and feel tents are artificial or unnatural but wouldn't question an irrigation system on the same grounds.    

We use a device to add water to maintain optimum conditions, why not use a device that witholds water to maintain optimum conditions?

Practical considerations aside (lets assume they can be resolved through $$$ or technology) why wouldn't you undertake a maintenance practice that is aimed at getting the conditions you think are best for the tournament?  

p.s.   I love Wrigley Field and hate indoor baseball stadiums.  

[Ryan Farrow]

Even if it could be done, where would all of that excess water go?

Either into the approach or into the surrounding bunkers, if you put up a tent like structure. The con's would be overwhelming.

[Craig Sweet]

The conditions that are best for the tournament?  You are not advocating for the "best" conditions, you are asking for consistency from day one thru four...maybe we could but up some huge wind blocks...large screens...so the afternoon golfers have the same wind conditions as the morning golfers?

 Heck, why not make every course exactly the same while we're at it?

[Ryan Farrow]

Since when did sarcasm turn into the way to respond to every thread we disagree with on Golf Club Atlas?

[Dan Moore]

I agree the definition of best conditions is totally subjective.  Lets go with the Tournament Committee feels the best way to test the skill and shotmaking ability of the contestants is to maintain f/f on the greens and approaches.  I'm pretty sure the USGA feels that way.  

Ryan,  assuming the practical problems could be addressed (my hypothetical tents have an elaborate drainage system that directs all water to a nearby drain that is out of play and an airflow system to assure healthy turf), would you use them to get the conditions the tournament commitee wants.  

Who said anything about wind blocks?  Wind challenges a player just like f/f conditions and helps define the best player.  The tournament commitee says the wind stays.  

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

The sarcasm has been here for some time.

As for the tarps, you're right, the rain would create big washouts wherever the tarps stopped (unlike on a flat infield).  When they gassed the greens at Long Cove years ago and covered them with plastic for protection, we had to go out and rip off the tarps the next morning when it started to rain.

[Dan Moore]

I hate to actually bring this back up but thought I should at least say I really was just kidding in a sarcastic, devil's advocate kinda way.  But I couldn't help myself when covering the greens were criticized for being unnatural when so much of the modern presentation of a golf course is unnatural to begin with.  

Anyway its a little difficult being obsessed with golf when your stuck in Chicago during the winter, so please forgive me for starting and continuing such a ridiculous thread.  When does spring training start, that's when I start to have hope that the end of winter is near?    

[Ryan Farrow]

Dan, I don't think its any more ridiculous than mowing a green 4 times in the morning.  You bring up an interesting idea, I just think there is a major issue that will make it irrelevant. I hope that you don't think my comment was directed towards you. Out of the box thinking is good, F the haters.

[Ray Richard]

The micro-climate under the tarp would greatly enhance a collection of horrible turf deseases. A big superintendent worry is to be sure that a green breathes at night so the water byproduct formed by photosynthesis is removed by air circulation. This latent moisture is a breeding ground for turf desease.

[Pete Lavallee]

A big question is how much moisture does it take to "ruin conditions", as Geoff alluded to. Although the consensus seems to be that it is impractical to control rain water to keep the greens firm consider what happened at the Nationwide Championship at Barona Creek this Nov.

The Super turned off the water to the greens a full week before the Championship to provide the firm conditions that Geoff was alluding to. Those of you who have played Barona will surely agree that for the angles from their wide fairways to work effectively, the greens must be firm, to penalize the inproper approach angle. After watching the first round on TV there was a furor on gca over the softness of the greens. JK even started a thread about how the Nationwide Tour softened conditions to make their guys look good.

Well, the reality of the situation was that each morning there was a fog delay lasting several hours; most unusual for Wild Cat Canyon. That small amount of moisture, deposited early in the morning, was all those guys neded to stick shots at will. So, would tarps have helped this scenario?

By the way, why don't tarps kill the grass on baseball or football fields?

[John Gosselin]

Dan, not that crazy of an idea. While working at DuPont CC I had several conversations with a product engineer working with Tyvek about making green covers to use during the LPGA Championship. We were going to bury them behind each green in some type of water proof plastic box and have the ability to pull them out and cover the greens in less then 15 minutes.

The greens at the time had very poor drainage and one half inch rain event would basically ruin the greens for at least a couple days. Mowing heights would have to be raised and rolling would have to be eliminated, just to avoid long term harm.

In the end I just couldn't bring myself to do it. It was not a money issue since the covers were going to be free. It was just a playability issue and the fact that the course should play the same as much as possible "through the green". Soft, wet approaches, fairways, and roughs with bone dry hard greens is not how a course should play. All playing surfaces should change together one way or another.

[Craig Sweet]

Why doesn't the grass on a baseball field die under a tarp? First of all the HOC is much higher...second, the time under the tarp is generally short, and if you notice, its mostly covering the dirt infield....

Personally, I think this is one of the stupidest ideas Shakleford has come up with...

If it is the intent of the PGA Tour to have wet greens so these pro's can stick a ball within 3 or 4 feet on every hole, so they can make a bunch of birdies, then that is what you'll get and this is the wrong solution....if the weather happens to turn and the greens get wet via mother nature, so be it...that's the way the game is....deal with it.  

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