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Tommy Williamsen

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Do you believe this?
« on: January 06, 2008, 10:52:23 PM »
Found this quote.

"When I first took up journalism, my kind but stern mentor laid down the principle that if my grandmother couldn't understand what I was writing about, it was a lousy piece of composition. I've come to carry this along into golf architecture. If my grandma can't play it, it's a lousy course."

Peter Thomson

I can't believe anyone would say this.  I guess we need to plow Pine Valley under and grow potatoes at Royal County Down.
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St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Andrew Summerell

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2008, 10:59:00 PM »
Tommy,

You won’t find much love for Peter Thomson courses from me. Obviously, his grandma preferred every course to look the same with very little strategy.
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Joel_Stewart

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2008, 11:04:45 PM »
I heard Peter Jacobson say the exact same thing last year.  
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Mark_Fine

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2008, 11:06:30 PM »
Tommy,
I believe Mackenzie once said that he thought any good golf hole should be able to be played with only a putter.  Maybe your grandma has read Mackenzie  ;D

Also, don't forget that Pine Valley was only designed for grandmas with +2 handicaps  ;)
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Bob_Huntley

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2008, 11:12:45 PM »
Tommy and Andrew,

With respect, I would hazard a guess that Peter Thomson knows more about the history of golf, architecture and the playing of the game than 99.00% of the contributors to this forum.

Andrew, how many Thomson courses have you played?

Bob
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Ken Moum

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2008, 11:19:22 PM »
Mackenzie once said that he thought any good golf hole should be able to be played with only a putter.

What he said.

Ken
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Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2008, 11:29:26 PM »
Quote from: Mark_Fine on January 06, 2008, 11:06:30 PM
Tommy,
I believe Mackenzie once said that he thought any good golf hole should be able to be played with only a putter.  Maybe your grandma has read Mackenzie  ;D

Also, don't forget that Pine Valley was only designed for grandmas with +2 handicaps  ;)

I guess dear old Alister could really smash his putter.  15 and 16 at Cypress would be tough with a putter.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2008, 11:31:16 PM »
Quote from: Bob_Huntley on January 06, 2008, 11:12:45 PM
Tommy and Andrew,

With respect, I would hazard a guess that Peter Thomson knows more about the history of golf, architecture and the playing of the game than 99.00% of the contributors to this forum.

Andrew, how many Thomson courses have you played?

Bob

Bob, you are probably right about his knowledge.  But that has nothing to do with whether or not we agree or if it is even true.  It is just a nice sentiment.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Neil_Crafter

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2008, 11:42:54 PM »
Tommy
Where is the quote from?
Neil
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Ken Moum

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2008, 11:50:16 PM »
Quote from: Tommy Williamsen on January 06, 2008, 11:29:26 PM
Quote from: Mark_Fine on January 06, 2008, 11:06:30 PM
Tommy,
I believe Mackenzie once said that he thought any good golf hole should be able to be played with only a putter.  Maybe your grandma has read Mackenzie  ;D

Also, don't forget that Pine Valley was only designed for grandmas with +2 handicaps  ;)

I guess dear old Alister could really smash his putter.  15 and 16 at Cypress would be tough with a putter.

He actually made the statement about #16 at Cypress Point. The story is on p. 137 of Spirit of St. Andrews.

What he said was, "I don't think an ideal hole is ideal unless it can be played with a putter...:

It's one of my favorite quotes about GCA.

Ken
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Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2008, 11:54:09 PM »
Quote from: Neil_Crafter on January 06, 2008, 11:42:54 PM
Tommy
Where is the quote from?
Neil

One of the places is The Ultimate Golf Book by by Charles McGrath, David McCormick, John Garrity
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Andrew Summerell

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2008, 12:01:20 AM »
Quote from: Bob_Huntley on January 06, 2008, 11:12:45 PM


Andrew, how many Thomson courses have you played?


Off the top of my head, I’ve played 10 courses designed by his company.

Hope Island
Tura Beach
Bali Handara
National Ocean
Moonah Link Open
Moonah Links Legend
Camden Lakeside
Sandhurst
Sea temple
Twin Waters

Plus a few where he is the architectural consultant like Royal Adelaide, where he has made quite a few changes over the last few years.
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Andrew Summerell

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2008, 12:24:04 AM »
I forgot to add -

Alice Springs
Darwin

So, it's 12 Thomson courses I've played.
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Chris Kane

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2008, 01:10:24 AM »
How many have you played Bob?
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Kyle Henderson

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2008, 02:06:11 AM »
I love my grandmother dearly, and she is a highly intelligent woman (achieving high marks while earning her degree from the University of Minnesota during the depression).

That being said, she has a poor grasp of the modern American vernacular, and as such she misses the subtle humors and plot devices of many artistic endeavors. Hence, I would be bored to death by any book, movie or golf course that was simplified enough that she would comprehend every important aspect of its design.

Isn't the greatness of TOC imparted by the infinite subtleties that make every round there a learning experience? If grandma gets the whole message after one play, I'll just have her relay the gist of her experience to me and save myself the substantial greens fee.
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David_Elvins

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2008, 02:07:20 AM »
Andrew,

Surprised you havent played Thurgoona, Yarrawonga, Royal Canberra or Port Douglas.  Here I was thinking you were well-travelled.  :)
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James Bennett

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2008, 02:13:52 AM »
David

or the 7th at Spring Valley.

James B
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Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Brad Klein

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2008, 03:10:23 AM »
I've played four or five Thomson courses. All of them leave me with the same impression.

He'll be remembered for being a great golfer and a fine writer.
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Andrew Summerell

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2008, 03:36:20 AM »
Quote from: David_Elvins on January 07, 2008, 02:07:20 AM
Andrew,

Surprised you havent played Thurgoona, Yarrawonga, Royal Canberra or Port Douglas.  Here I was thinking you were well-travelled.  :)

I have played Royal Canberra, but not the 3rd nine.

I forgot about Yarrawonga. There you go! I played 13.
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David_Elvins

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2008, 04:22:54 AM »
Quote from: Tommy Williamsen on January 06, 2008, 10:52:23 PM
Found this quote.

"When I first took up journalism, my kind but stern mentor laid down the principle that if my grandmother couldn't understand what I was writing about, it was a lousy piece of composition. I've come to carry this along into golf architecture. If my grandma can't play it, it's a lousy course."

Peter Thomson

I can't believe anyone would say this.  I guess we need to plow Pine Valley under and grow potatoes at Royal County Down.


Tommy,

I enjoy Peter Thomson's writing more often than not but there is no doubt that (like many good writers), he has quite a provocative nature.  If you take the tone of the quote, rather than the absolute literal interpretation, it is a point that I generally agree with.   Although I havent played Pine Valley, courses such as Royal Melbourne, Augusta and TOC are closer to the "ideal course" in my mind.  

Take out the word "lousy", is it a comment that you agree with or have any sympathy for?  
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Mark_Fine

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2008, 08:24:55 AM »
Kelly,
I only have experience with one of his courses which is nothing so I would go by what some of the others here think who have seen more.   I could show you photos and let you draw your own conclusions but I don't intend to do that.  His other work might be very good for all I know.  What have you seen that he has done?
Mark
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Michael Powers

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2008, 09:04:33 AM »
Wow, having not played a Stanley Thompson course, I thought many here placed him in high esteem.  Does this mean he going to be panned along with Rees, Faxio, and Nicklaus?
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HP

John Kavanaugh

Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2008, 09:07:12 AM »
Quote from: Michael Powers on January 07, 2008, 09:04:33 AM
Wow, having not played a Stanley Thompson course, I thought many here placed him in high esteem.  Does this mean he going to be panned along with Rees, Faxio, and Nicklaus?

Just by writers, critics and restoration experts.  Used to be only writers made stuff up.
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Adam Clayman

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2008, 09:15:34 AM »
Michael Powers, Did you intentionally substitute Stanley Thompson for Peter Thomson for comedic relief?
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

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Re:Do you believe this?
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2008, 11:01:38 AM »
I like the quote.  I always think about how my mom would get around a course that I'm building, and I'm guessing Thomson's grandma was probably a better player than my mom.

As to the comments on his work -- where does it say that you have to be a great architect in order to say something important about design?  If that were true this site would be a lot less populated.
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