[Chip Gaskins]

Can I start a HEALTHY discussion about the width of landing areas on the other side of blind shots?  

We all realize I was thrown under the bus when I posted before on Merion, but I am very willing to learn from you guys on why Merion is so good.

Here are two pictures that illustrate my issues with two holes at Merion, #4 and #11.

Look how narrow the landing area is on #4 and #11 after blind shots.

Merion #4


Merion #11


As a contrast, look how wide the landing area is here is at of RCD #9 and PV # 7.

Royal County Down #9 (not my pic)


Pine Valley #7

[Mike_Cirba]

Chip,

That's a really good question, and although I think both 4 & 11 at Merion are wonderfully exciting holes to play, I do find myself wishing that the US Open mentality of narrow, narrow fairways was relaxed just a tad, especially for normal membership and guest play.  

If they feel it has to be that narrow to challenge the top Amateurs and Professionals, I can't argue that effectively, but I would perhaps suggest that angles and the greensites, especially when firm and fast, would still remain a significant challenge.   I just think there is an aversion to someone shooting low numbers.

[Mike Sweeney]

The 11th has always been narrow. Is it narrower today than 20 years ago? Only marginally if at all. If you miss the fairway, you can wedge back on or play to the left of the geen which leaves a tough shot out of the rough. However there were no 60 degree wedges 20 years ago. I personally think it is the toughest (but very fair) second shot on the course. Even for the first time player, a caddie should give you a decnt line, and you can see it while playing the 10th, so I disagree with your assesment on 11.

You can see a little of 4 while playing the #2 tee shot, but it is a different kind of awkward. I would agree that the fairway is too narrow. Maybe someone can confirm, but it seems like the fairway was also shifted to the left towards the fifth in recent years? In an era where big players are hitting par 5's in two, I think a little blindness and protection from the creek make the hole a very good one. love the drive too, and while I know that right is very safe, I always seem to end up left.....

[Bill Gayne]

What's the length of the two holes at Merion and the length to carry the blind portion of the tee shot?

Nice set of pictures to illustrate a point.

[Chip Gaskins]

The 11th has always been narrow. Is it narrower today than 20 years ago? Only marginally if at all. If you miss the fairway, you can wedge back on or play to the left of the geen which leaves a tough shot out of the rough. However there were no 60 degree wedges 20 years ago. I personally think it is the toughest (but very fair) second shot on the course. Even for the first time player, a caddie should give you a decnt line, and you can see it while playing the 10th, so I disagree with your assesment on 11.

You can see a little of 4 while playing the #2 tee shot, but it is a different kind of awkward. I would agree that the fairway is too narrow. Maybe someone can confirm, but it seems like the fairway was also shifted to the left towards the fifth in recent years? In an era where big players are hitting par 5's in two, I think a little blindness and protection from the creek make the hole a very good one. love the drive too, and while I know that right is very safe, I always seem to end up left.....

shouldn't i be preoccupied by the hole I am playing when I am actually playing it?  

i hear you that i could see 4 when playing 2 and could see 11 when playing 10, but i was preoccupied trying to make birdie on that hole when i was playing it, not looking ahead several holes ahead...

[wsmorrison]

I don't think your photographs, particularly the photograph of Merion's 4th hole are helpful to this discussion.   Just what are those unfamiliar with the course to take from your photographs?  Why don't you post some Google Earth or other overhead photographs with the widths noted in various portions of the fairways on the holes along with distances to LZs?  That would be more helpful to this discussion.

At Merion East, what club do most players hit on the second shot on #2 (especially with the ball so far above your feet in most portions of the fairway) and what do most players hit on the tee shot on #11?  Certainly the club and distance being hit should be taken into account with the width of the fairways.

  I've never been to RCD, but I take it the 9th is a long hole and nearly everyone hits driver.  It is easier to consider this hole because the photograph is better than your typical photographs here and on your blog.  Pine Valley is wider than any course in the world with the possible exception of NGLA.  To compare any course to those two would be misleading, especially given the design intent (PV) and wind (NGLA) at those courses.  

[wsmorrison]

"I hear you that i could see 4 when playing 2 and could see 11 when playing 10, but i was preoccupied trying to make birdie on that hole when i was playing it, not looking ahead several holes ahead..."

You had a caddy, so there should have been little doubt as to what you needed to do on each individual shot.  However, golf is not played one shot at a time, there should be an integrated strategy.  Sure, if you make errors, you must adapt, but nobody should play a course one disconnected shot from another.  What about a game plan?  If you are so preoccupied playing a specific hole that you cannot look around and learn what may be seen on other holes, you are not properly thinking your way around the golf course.  You must plan ahead on all courses and particularly Merion East.  Are you telling me after your tee shot on 11 you didn't look over and consider the pin position on 12?  When you were on the 2nd green you didn't look to see where the pin was on 3?  When on the 4th tee you didn't look to see where the pin was on 7 green?  And so on and so on.  Come on, your excuse isn't really valid.

[Mike Sweeney]

What's the length of the two holes at Merion and the length to carry the blind portion of the tee shot?

Nice set of pictures to illustrate a point.

4 is a long par 5 and the second shot landing area is in question and also pictured.

11 is the hole where Bobby Jones won his Grand Slam and is roughly 370 yards. Most players do not hit driver, and it is an easy 3 wood to a drop down fairway.

[Chip Gaskins]

I don't think your photographs, particularly the photograph of Merion's 4th hole are helpful to this discussion.   Just what are those unfamiliar with the course to take from your photographs?  Why don't you post some Google Earth or other overhead photographs with the widths noted in various portions of the fairways on the holes along with distances to LZs?  That would be more helpful to this discussion.

At Merion East, what club do most players hit on the second shot on #2 (especially with the ball so far above your feet in most portions of the fairway) and what do most players hit on the tee shot on #11?  Certainly the club and distance being hit should be taken into account with the width of the fairways.

  I've never been to RCD, but I take it the 9th is a long hole and nearly everyone hits driver.  It is easier to consider this hole because the photograph is better than your typical photographs here and on your blog.  Pine Valley is wider than any course in the world with the possible exception of NGLA.  To compare any course to those two would be misleading, especially given the design intent (PV) and wind (NGLA) at those courses.  

ok, let me try a few more (not that anyone wants to see me hitting a second shot)....

but here is #8 at Pebble....look how much wider that is after a blind shot..



more to come...

[Bill Gayne]

  I've never been to RCD, but I take it the 9th is a long hole and nearly everyone hits driver.  

The ninth for me and most players is a full driver and it's 430 yard par four. But what makes the RCD hole different from the other three (I haven't played or seen the other three so it's an assumption) is that it's an 80 foot drop from the tee. Additionally it's a seaside links with the element of wind.

Chip,

I just saw your post above with the Pebble picture. I'd be careful comparing parkland blind holes to seaside due to the effects of wind.

[Mike Sweeney]

but here is #8 at Pebble....look how much wider that is after a blind shot..

Maybe my favorite par 4 in golf, but not comparible to Merion 11 as you have about 10,000 miles of wind coming in off the ocean on Pebble 8. Also, Merion 11 is designed to be a precise short iron hole and I doubt Bobby Jones hit a hickory driver back in the day. Pebble 8 is not a wedge hole so they should have different strategies off the tee.

Pebble is also a public resort and they probably don't want every player looking for balls.

[James Bennett]

Mike Sweeney

interesting point about the difference between a public and private course in the US.  The use of caddies is much more commonplace at Merion, with one of the caddies invariably going forward on such holes as a fore caddie.  So, looking for balls in the rough is not as difficult as it would otherwise be.  Of course, you don't have the advantadge of your caddie giving you the line of play on a blind hole when he is forecaddying.

James B

[jeffwarne]

I've played the ninth at RCD multiple times and the seventh at PV several times.
I haven't played Merion but Chip didn't you say you teed off with a five iron on one of these blind holes at Merion.
If given a reasonable line, how hard can it be to find the fairway?
Is the fairway narrower than the greens on any blind par threes you've played?


Not saying the fairways on those holes at Merion couldn't be wider, but I'd say the tee shot on 9 at RCD is at least more intimidating (to the first time player certainly)and given the wind, significantly harder.

The example you sight of #8 at Pebble illustrates how a wide fairway can make the hole harder by luring the player away from the ocean into a more difficult second shot than he might've otherwise faced had he driven towards a more narrow ,defined fairway nearer the ocean.
Does such a case exist on either hole at Merion, or do you just want more room for a marginal iron shot because it's blind?

[Kyle Harris]

The 11th has always been narrow. Is it narrower today than 20 years ago? Only marginally if at all. If you miss the fairway, you can wedge back on or play to the left of the geen which leaves a tough shot out of the rough. However there were no 60 degree wedges 20 years ago. I personally think it is the toughest (but very fair) second shot on the course. Even for the first time player, a caddie should give you a decnt line, and you can see it while playing the 10th, so I disagree with your assesment on 11.

You can see a little of 4 while playing the #2 tee shot, but it is a different kind of awkward. I would agree that the fairway is too narrow. Maybe someone can confirm, but it seems like the fairway was also shifted to the left towards the fifth in recent years? In an era where big players are hitting par 5's in two, I think a little blindness and protection from the creek make the hole a very good one. love the drive too, and while I know that right is very safe, I always seem to end up left.....

shouldn't i be preoccupied by the hole I am playing when I am actually playing it?  

i hear you that i could see 4 when playing 2 and could see 11 when playing 10, but i was preoccupied trying to make birdie on that hole when i was playing it, not looking ahead several holes ahead...

Chip,

I don't particularly want to parse your words here, but I think your view of the golf hole, and of how the game at Merion should be played in general, is skewing your view of the architecture.

I've always been of the opinion, and have always considered that opinion to be a shared one, that the golfer must seek to press the advantages given to him by the architect when given the opportunity which includes looking at situations and holes ahead. While it may be difficult for the first time at a course, the ability to think strategically becomes easier with subsequent playings.

I ask you to consider your next round at Merion, and how the experiences of your first time will determine your play the second time. Will you allow your viewpoints of the 4th and 11th to enter your thoughts prior to playing those holes and perhaps alter your scoring strategy on them? Will you use your past experience with the holes to make them easier this time around?

I believe that the 4th and 11th holes at Merion will seem wider during your next round.

You also mentioned in your blog that you managed to make par on the 4th hole without hitting the fairway on either shot - which is no small feat at a place like Merion East. If your play of the hole still allowed for a par, why do you consider the hole too narrow? Do you think you'd find the fairway to be an easier target if your tee shot found the fairway?

[Steve Verde]

The lay-up on 4 and the teeshot on 11 aren't my two favorites on the course but I don't think that they are too narrow. Like Wayne stated, you could hit a five iron or less on both holes and still have a wedge left. If those landing areas were widened the shots would almost be inconsequential. There are no bunkers so the rough remains the defense.

Also keep in mind that Wilson probably designed this as a members course. He knows that it will primarily be members playing at the course and they should know exactly where the fairway is and what club they should hit. Similarly, for championships, the players would have played a practise round and would become familiar with the course. The course is not designed for the guest who plays there once.

[TEPaul]

Steve:

Although it seems like Wilson et al were never anywhere near as vocal on the subject as Crump of Pine Valley was I don't think anyone who knows Merion and its history would ever say Merion East was just intended to be a "members" course and at almost no time in its history has it ever been anything remotely close to that even in the early days when the fairways were much wider than they are now.

[Steve Verde]

Steve:

I don't think anyone who knows Merion and its history would ever say Merion East was just intended to be a "members" course and at almost no time in its history has it ever been anything remotely close to that

This was poorly phrased on my part. What I meant was that Wilson knew who his clients were and they wanted a challenging, championship-caliber course. Courses like this can get away with blind shots way more easily than a public or resort course. On these courses the architect knows that the average person playing there has never played there before or has very limited experience with the course and is less inclined to include blind shots especially ones with small or sloped landing areas

[Mike Sweeney]

On Google Earth (which is not perfect), the landing area on 11 is 29-30 yards wide. On #4, it ranges from 22 yards up the hill to 30 yrds down by the creek.

I would add fairway here on #4:

[wsmorrison]

"The use of caddies is much more commonplace at Merion, with one of the caddies invariably going forward on such holes as a fore caddie.  So, looking for balls in the rough is not as difficult as it would otherwise be.  Of course, you don't have the advantadge of your caddie giving you the line of play on a blind hole when he is forecaddying."


James,

There isn't an instance where the player is left to his own to figure things out.  Given that a guest must play with a member and caddies are almost always required, there aren't any issues with uncertainty, simply execution. One caddy goes ahead to forecaddy just past the start of the downslope on 11 while the other caddy remains on the tee with the players.  There is ample time to discuss the line of play beforehand as there is on each hole such where one or more caddies go forward such as the tee shots on 4,5,6 (both forecaddy),7,10 (both),12 (both),14,15 (both),16 (both) and 18.  

[Dan Boerger]

#4 tee shot is particularly difficult for me, since I like to work the ball right to left and if you get even a little bit snappish, you'll be in trouble. That said, I think the landing area is wide enough, particularly since it's a par 5. I've mentioned this before, but I'll state it again ... the use of trees along the right side adds a great deal to this hole.

#11 is also plenty wide, IMO. Sure it's blind, but it's about the easiest blind shot you'll ever play: straight and downhill.

The most difficult single shot at Merion, IMO, is the #17 tee shot.

[Michael Blake]

4 is a tough tee shot. No question about it. But even a shot into the rough leaves you two shots to hit the green in regulation.

11 is 350yds from the middle tees.  More an issue of club selection off the tee and execution.  A miss still leaves a wedge or so in.


Wayne,

What club do most members hit on 11?  5 wood or hybrid equivalent?

[mike_malone]

 I think they are too narrow for how the rough is maintained. If you miss #11 or #4 fairways, sometimes you need to layup short of the water.

[wsmorrison]

Michael Blake,

I can't say with full certainty, but I do play with a broader cross section of members than guests.  Members obviously know how to play the hole according to their skills.  Players hit everything from a driver to a 6 iron from any tee position.  I usually hit a 22* wood or 3-4 iron from the back tee and a 4 or 5 iron from the middle of the tee depending upon the trajectory I want.  So course conditions come into play in the decision making.  Whatever I hit off the tee, I try to leave myself with a full gap or lob wedge in so I can hit it high and spin the ball to hold the green.

As you know, the maintenance practices are geared towards playability first.  The staff does a wonderful job preparing the fairways, approaches, greens and even rough to play firm and fast as often as possible.  

One way to approach the tee shot is to hit the ball 200-210 (from the rear of the tee) yards on a low trajectory to scoot the ball down the slope.  The fairway is at its narrowest if you attempt this strategy and if you veer left or right, you'll be caught up in the rough with a downhill lie to a green you must approach with a lofted shot, usually with spin to hold the firm green.  So you must hit an accurately if you play a running shot.

A higher trajectory shot works as well but you have to hit it further down the line of play, that's why I usually hit something I hit very straight and long enough, like my 7 wood.  

One aspect of the hole design that may be lost on some is that the line from tee to green may be tempting and hard to avoid.  Yet you must play away from the green on a line near the field goal trees just to the right of the clearing up the hill behind the green.  For those that don't know the course, it is hard not to steer the ball towards the green, especially on a short hole.  For those that do know the dangers of the stream on the left and the poor angle of approach, shots may end up right of the fairway.  If not too far right so that tall trees interfere with an approach, you can have a shot at the green but you better hit an excellent one.  You have to clear the stream in front of the green at its widest and hold the green out of the rough.  It is very difficult to judge the right distance to land the ball just over the stream to hold the green.  All in all, a short downhill hole is very difficult.  I think it is a brilliant design.  

[Tom_Doak]

I agree with Chip on this one.  I believe that when you have a blind shot with severe rough in the landing area, you need to give the player significantly more room so that the choice of line from the tee doesn't have to be perfect.

The 11th is a great second-shot hole, like the 8th at Pebble, but the tee shot is nothing to brag about.

I've also got to ask whether Mike Sweeney is correct that those fairways have "always" been narrow.  Just because they have been so since 1980 (the first time I saw the course) doesn't mean they were that way in the 1920's.  In fact I am certain that at least some of Merion's fairways have been narrowed to half what they once were, and I would be greatly surprised if that wasn't true of #4 and #11 also.  Anybody got one of those old aerial photos handy?

Merion was one of the first courses to narrow its fairways to 30 yards for championships, which was likely an attempt to counter potential criticism that it was too short or too easy.  It's too bad they don't have more internal confidence about the quality of the golf course so they don't have to make decisions like that.

[Jeff Spittel]

Maybe it's just because I've grown used to playing penal modern courses since relocating from the North East to Texas, but I think the width of the hole is defined by the playing corridor, not the cut of the fairway. As such, I hardly think those holes look too narrow, especially given that they don't necessarily require a driver from the tee.

I've never had the pleasure of playing Merion, but we are talking about a U.S. course. It's not necessarily supposed to be easy, and I have no problem with there being a premium placed on accuracy off the tee for the members.

Missed the fairway and have an wedge into a well guarded green from the rough? Cry me a river.

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