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Jay Flemma

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2008, 06:29:03 PM »
Tim, my professor endorsed it as gospel and looked for that on the exam...and he certainly indoctrinated us to practice it as well...
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 06:30:29 PM by Jay Flemma »

Steve_ Shaffer

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2008, 06:33:23 PM »
The cases are dependent on local law and decisions are both ways.

The Palm Beach case is disturbing to me because this condition was there for many years. I've never played this course but stopped by to walk around and noticed the danger. The problem here may be that the course may be protected by sovereign immunity and, as such, there is no incentive to correct a dangerous condition. I doubt it because suit has been filed and I assume the attorney would not file such a suit if there is immunity. I wouldn't. I'm one of those plaintiff's lawyers who doesn't take every case that walks in my office.

Someone has even written a book:

www.lib.niu.edu/ipo/2004/ip040318.html
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Pete_Pittock

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2008, 06:54:24 PM »
A book just authored by John Minan (and Gary McCord) entitled 'The LIttle Green Book of Golf Law: The Real Rules of the Game of Golf" discusses 18 cases, including the California "Morgan vs Fuji USA" case where a golfer sued the owners and won via the secondary assumption of risk (co-participants is primary, participant vs operator is secondary.)

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?TTL=golf+law&ATH=&WRD=&PRC=&FMT=&AGE=&CID=&z=y
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 03:19:59 AM by Pete_Pittock »

mike_beene

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2008, 10:59:37 PM »
(Never one to sit back humbly),the book includes a case I represented the Dallas Athletic Club in a number of years ago.

David Lott

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2008, 11:42:27 PM »
Mark -

The rule in GA - re: cars getting hit by balls on adjoining roads - is that the driver assumes the risk when driving by a golf course. That surprised me a bit. I don't know if other states come down equally hard on car owners in that situation.  Nonetheless some clubs will pay something for the goodwill.

Bob

Several years back, I was a guest at Capital City Club in Atlanta. My second shot on the par five first hole went way right over the hedge that borders a fairly busy road.

The unmistakable sound of a golf ball shattering a windshield ensued.

A car door slammed and a very large fellow came through an opening in the hedge with a golf ball in his hand. It must have been obvious from my cowering and apologetic stance that I was the culprit.

He stood for a moment, about 30 yards away, silent and large. "You playing a Titleist?" he asked me.

"Yes."

"Then I found your golf ball."

He tossed the ball perfectly to my feet and was already back through the hedge by the time the ball stopped.

My host was Clayton Moore.

"Southern hospitality," Clay said.

David Lott

Lloyd_Cole

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2008, 08:25:33 AM »
Sorry Gents, but I can't look at this thread any longer without asking - Are specialists in this field 'Flawyers'?

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2008, 09:56:13 AM »
Lloyd,

Good one!

Pete,

Thanks for the link. Already ordered. I guess I am a clubhouse lawyer, but for under $20 it should be a good read.

Tim,

As long as there is the possibility of a suit being declared frivolous - and its not ignored - I think that is all we can ask for.  Your point about the "imbalance" of the system towards corporations is interesting.  By law, aren't all corporations (a fictious individual, if I recall correctly) or people EQUAL?  I understand that wealth is an advantage, but trying to make them equal on an outcome based system rather than starting them both out at the same point is a downward slope, is it not?

BTW, I think I gave myself the title of my book (if it ever comes out) "Outcome based golf architecture!"
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Smolens

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2008, 10:34:48 AM »
My other Oak Brook Golf case was indeed, I believe, frivolous, but with no benefit resulting to the taxpayers who were paying my bill.  A young man was injured during the first session of a Junior Golf program being conducted by 3 of the OB professionals on the polo field next door (yes, this is Oak Brook).  A practice driving range was set up with tennis balls so that the new golfers could get some confidence hitting the ball.

The plaintiff, ignoring instructions as 10 year olds are want to do :o, bent over to pick up a ball which had come out behind one of the piles, and was struck with a backswing from young Nicholas Wakkim (cruel irony in the name?).  Because this is a municipal golf course, the applicable tort immunity required the plaintiff to plead and prove willful and wanton conduct -- a higher form of misconduct than simple negligence.

When I moved for summary judgment, the plaintiff and his friend submitted affidavits (false ones!) that the pros had instructed the kids to swing at moving tennis balls which were being thrown/rolled to them -- I guess because it was a polo field they thought this would fly.  The judge denied my motion.

Fortunately, the risk pool and the Village refused to settle.  Eight years later (the case was non-suited and refiled when the plaintiff reached age 18), the case was tried.  At trial, the plaintiff and his buddy's testimony of course changed -- no one would ever have believed the tossed ball story.  But, at the close of the plaintiff's case the trial judge granted my directed verdict motion  :-* based upon the changed testimony and the complete absence of willful and wanton conduct by my pros.

The judge refused, however, to award fees against the plaintiff and his lawyers >:( -- tho the pros take care of their lawyer whenever he shows up to play (so a good result for me!).  The power to sanction for frivolity (frivolousness?) is rarely a deterrent in my experience.

Tim Pitner

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2008, 12:00:30 PM »
Tim,

As long as there is the possibility of a suit being declared frivolous - and its not ignored - I think that is all we can ask for.  Your point about the "imbalance" of the system towards corporations is interesting.  By law, aren't all corporations (a fictious individual, if I recall correctly) or people EQUAL?  I understand that wealth is an advantage, but trying to make them equal on an outcome based system rather than starting them both out at the same point is a downward slope, is it not?

Jeff,

I'm not sure I follow you.  I believe I said that the legal system favors the wealthy (whether individuals or corporations) because they can afford to pay attorneys' fees.  A "loser-pays" rule in all circumstances would deter too many suits (including meritorious ones) because plaintiffs couldn't afford to risk losing.  In our common law legal system (which relies on precedent in past cases), we need cases to be filed in order to make law.  Not all losing cases are bad cases--some are close calls and sometimes judges and/or juries get it wrong.  

I don't advocate giving individuals preferetial treatment against corporations (although most juries will do this anyway).  

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2008, 12:56:42 PM »
Tim,

Setting up a system that deters "too many" suits or encourages more is a judgement call.  In a country based on all people being equal, shouldn't the system treat them as such, even if one is wealthy and one is poor?  

Setting up a system where plaintiffs can get advice for free (contingency basis) while running up the other sides bills is being preferential to one party, even if the idea by some supposedly enlightened individuals is to "balance the field", not equal treatment under the law.

While I understand the value judgement, its in place to encourage more lawsuits, not get justice.  Oh yeah, the lawyers only want that because the common law system demands it, right? At least,  most Americans believe that the system is in place to fatten lawyers pockets, if the number of lawyers joke books is any indication!

Of course, I can argue all day. Others have, and the system and Congress are largely controlled by lawyers, so things won't change too much.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Pearce

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2008, 01:41:37 PM »
We have a loser pays rule in England.  It has its drawbacks but it seems to work better than giving cart blanche to frivolous claimants as the US system appears to by default.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Pitner

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2008, 01:51:25 PM »

Setting up a system where plaintiffs can get advice for free (contingency basis) while running up the other sides bills is being preferential to one party, even if the idea by some supposedly enlightened individuals is to "balance the field", not equal treatment under the law.

Jeff,

The "system" is not set up so only plaintiffs can use contingency fee arrangements.  Defendants can use performance-based fee arrangements with their attorneys too, if they negotiate them.  It's just not what has traditionally taken place; most defense firms are compensated hourly.  As I said above, that is changing some.  

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Design flaw suits
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2008, 01:57:40 PM »
Tim,

Fair enough, even though a performance based fee might have to be based on the winnings in any countersuit.

I think my opinions on the matter are colored somewhat by the fact that I may be percieved to have enough assets to go after (rightly or wrongly, and considering an E and O policy) but not the clout to negotiate fees like a big corporation might have. I am stuck in the worst of all worlds, like most gca's!  I think we think big business is a bigger portion of our economy than it really is, and those lawsuits hurt the small and mid size companies who have really driven a lot of economic growth, basically taking a chance and buying ourselves a middle class existence when we should (and this is FACT, not Value Judgement) be compensated much more highly ;) for the risks we take......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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