Do you Agree?

[Matthew Hunt]

Who said this? I doubt many people will have read this so take a stab.

“Some course such as Pine Valley, Oakmont or Royal County Down can be greatly enjoyed even if a good score may be a rarity. Conversely if you aren’t playing well on a course built in the ‘Dark Era’ of course design it my feel like getting beaten up in a dark side alley. I can promise you on my courses some days after finishing your round you will still feel like you have got beaten up by Mohammad Ali. Like a round with Ali it will hurt an over-inflated ego. But an encounter with Ali it will be experience you can’t get elsewhere, something you will never forget and something that will inspire you!”

And what are your thoughts and opinions on his/her comments?

[Matthew Hunt]

I think this makes Augusta National into Floyd Mayweather (Big ego but can back it up).

[TEPaul]

The never ending phenomenon that has existed at Pine Valley from the very beginning is how many golfers, particularly golfers who aren't very good, seem to enjoy getting the tar beaten out of them by the course.

This is something that the club has always looked upon with a sort of bemused lack of understanding but it's definitely true and I can guarantee it is and has been as long as the place has been in existence.

I suspect it may have a bit more to do with the fame and stature of the place and not only the difficulty of the course.

I think a pretty good analogy is how many people seem fascinated by trying to ring the bell at the state fair, if you know what I mean.

Most all of them know and understand that they'll never have the strength to ring that bell but they seem to be genuinely fascinated in seeing how far up the poll they can send it anyway.  

For me, I never tried that kind of thing and the reason why is I'm convinced if I did my girlfriend or wife or whatever would just look at me and say:

"You really are the whimp I always suspected you were!"

[Garland Bayley]

Since we don't know the architect, and thereby the courses in question, it is hard to agree or disagree.

Would the architect be Jack Nicklaus (the golf synonym to Ali)?

[Joel_Stewart]

Its a good question.  

At Pine Valley I don't really care what I shoot although I prefer to play well.  I just like walking around, seeing what the shot options are.

At Shinnecock, I almost dread it because I know I'm going to get beat up and I probably prefer being across the road at NGLA.

At Pebble Beach, I get frustrated when I don't play/score well, at Cypress I don't really care about my score.

So as you can see, I waffle.  Must depend on the course.

[John Moore II]

I like the comparison in the first comment. I find it very true that when I play bad on a not so great course, I just feel bad, but when I play bad on a great course, I feel bad, but I know that I was beaten up by something very unique. Plus, the idea of playing well at a great course is very rewarding, even if you don't play well.

[Matthew Hunt]

Since we don't know the architect, and thereby the courses in question, it is hard to agree or disagree.

Would the architect be Jack Nicklaus (the golf synonym to Ali)?

No its not Jack. But I will tell you in my opinion that the aforementioned design aim is achieved in his courses.

[Matthew Hunt]

Its a good question.  

At Pine Valley I don't really care what I shoot although I prefer to play well.  I just like walking around, seeing what the shot options are.

At Shinnecock, I almost dread it because I know I'm going to get beat up and I probably prefer being across the road at NGLA.

At Pebble Beach, I get frustrated when I don't play/score well, at Cypress I don't really care about my score.

So as you can see, I waffle.  Must depend on the course.

Well summed up Joel

[Bill Brightly]

I'll guess Fazio

[wsmorrison]

Joel,

Please tell me why you feel almost dread when playing Shinnecock.  If you think you'll get beat up, you probably will, so it is somewhat self-fulfilling.  But what exactly about the course do you find so difficult?  I'm not trying to put you on the spot, I'm trying to learn what people think and figure out what about Shinnecock seems so hard to everyone and not just compared to its neighbor to the west.

[Art Roselle]

Given the era when Ali was in his prime and the references to the Dark Ages, I would guess Pete Dye.

[Mark Studer]

I agree with Art...Pete Dye...his courses do present  a distinct memorability factor for sure....he is not afraid to "compete" with PineValley, Oakmont , or RCD either.

[Matthew Hunt]

Its not Dye of Fazio (I dont think I've seen a quote of more than a sentance from him). Mark, I feel thats a very intresting point you bring up and one which probably deserves its own thread.

[Joel_Stewart]

But what exactly about the course do you find so difficult?  

Everything.   I've played there maybe 6 times and my score goes up everytime I play it.  The par 3's are murder, the par 4's are long and hard and the par 5's are OK.  Maybe the course doesn't fit my game, but I find it very penal, if you miss a green you're dead, if you're in the wrong spot on the green you're dead, if you hit it in the sand you're dead, if you don't drive it into the fairway you're dead.

Now with that said, the back nine is amazing.  I'm so far over par at that point, its fun.  10 & 11 are world class but you can still make a 10 on those holes easily.  I can't tell you how many times I have hit balls short on 10 and then give it a little too much juice to go over.



Hope that helps, it has made me feel so much better.