[James Bennett]

To say that Kilkeel is cuisine-challenged is putting a nice face on things!  The best restaurant in town was closed while we were there.

Bill

was this an intentional 'irish' joke - "how did you know it was the best restuarant in a cuisine-challenged town" ....  "it was closed".

Also Sean amd Bill (honorary patron of Painswick) - do either the first (par 4) or fifth (par3) fit in the Spion Kop definition.  Or the 10th (par 3) perhaps also.

James B

[Stan Dodd]

Mark,
Played Edzell once.  It is good fun and warm up for the Buda would be fun.

[Brian_Ewen]

Stan
Edzell isnt what it once was .

Its still very popular , which means they have money and no idea what to do with it , so they have started tinkering with the course .

Many of Braids bunkers have disappeared , and where once it was very scrubby , heathery , heathland in areas , is now covered in long grass , holes have been lenghtened and fairways narrowed , all in an attempt to make it harder .

Pass Edzell and head to Forfar instead is my advice .

IMHO

[Bill_McBride]

To say that Kilkeel is cuisine-challenged is putting a nice face on things!  The best restaurant in town was closed while we were there.

Bill

was this an intentional 'irish' joke - "how did you know it was the best restuarant in a cuisine-challenged town" ....  "it was closed".

Also Sean amd Bill (honorary patron of Painswick) - do either the first (par 4) or fifth (par3) fit in the Spion Kop definition.  Or the 10th (par 3) perhaps also.

James B

Purely accidental.  

Painswick's holes are far too unique to fit any template.   Each of the three holes you mention are not sort of blind, they are completely blind.  Actually, you can see the top of the flag stick on #1 - as you stand there huffing and puffing from the climb up - but the par 3s are completely blind up over the ramparts.

From the club's website, here's a photo of #10 in the winter - the green is over the ramparts.  This doesn't look like any of the Spion Kops discussed or illustrated above!  

[TEPaul]

Sean:

Yes, actually I think I do remember Spion Kop being talked about on here, and it's in the back pages.

It was talked about in a thread where we were trying to figure out the etymology of the "cop" or "Kop" bunker feature.

But obviously when we got around to Spion Kop it apparently only served to confuse things further.

Probably just another example of Boer camouflage and deception!  

[TEPaul]

Sean:

You know, what the hell kinda word is Spion Kop anyway? It makes no sense to me as does most anything else any Africkaner (is that a Boer?) says.

One time about thirty five years ago while traveling around Europe with Mieke Tunney we ran into a bunch of Africaners at a restaurant in Amsterdam. I couldn't understand one damn thing they were saying although Mieke apparently could. All I could get is they were a pretty rough and ready bunch and it seemed like they didn't cotton to blacks or someone they might have suspected was English.  

[Steve Salmen]

The hole that most comes to mind is the 10th at Sandwich.  I recall the drive being fairly straighforward.  The second goes straight up the hill.  Short, left, and long are no good.  If the hole is playing downwind, it's difficult to stop the ball with even a short iron.

[Tom Dunne]

I have written an article for T+L Golf on the Spion Kop that should appear at some point in '09. It was definitely a fun story to research. Good exercise, too. Keep an eye out!

[Sean_A]

I have written an article for T+L Golf on the Spion Kop that should appear at some point in '09. It was definitely a fun story to research. Good exercise, too. Keep an eye out!

Tom

Keep us posted when this story comes out.  I have continued looking into the history of Spion Kop and would be very interested to read your piece.  I tried to discover

1. If a defeat of the namesake had any significance on naming the hole.
2. If there is a difference between Majuba and Spion Kop.  So far as I can tell, there is none.
3. Why the hole never caught on as a template.

Ciao

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There is another Spion Kop thread somewhere in GCA, about 4 years ago. There's one at Flackwell Heath.

[Jonathan Davison]

My old course in the UK, Whitburn GC had a Spion Kop. Think it was number 15, it was designed by John Morrison in the 1930's.

[tlavin]

Number 11 at Flossmoor CC in suburban Chicago, is a great example of a Spion Kop and it has always (since the course opened in 1899) had that name.  Dan Moore surely has some info on that for us!

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - if I'm understanding it right, there's a 'spion kop" at Lakeview, a municipal course in the Toronto area designed (or tweaked?) by Herbert Srong (in 1907, I think).  It hosted the Canadian Open a couple of times, once when Tommy Armour won it.  I think you'd like it -- simple, lay of the (mostly flattish) land, par 71, 6,400 yards.  The 12th hole there is a sharp dog leg -- mid/long iron off the tee to sort of blind landing area, then a short iron up to a green you can't see perched atop a very steep hill.

Sorry, can't find a picture

Peter 

[Tom Dunne]

Terry, that would be the first American Spion Kop that I have encountered. Well spotted!

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Sean,

Certainly Javier Arana did use it as a template. See picture of the seventh at Neguri (Bilbao). Plays 440yds (par 4), usually with the wind on the back and you have to play a downhill lie to a severely raised double plateau green. Similar holes in a couple more of his courses.

Regards,

[Greg Ohlendorf]

Terry and Tom,

In the 100th anniversary book on Flossmoor done in 1999 said the Spion Kop is the name of a hill in Natal, East Union of South Africa, where the British under General Buller, were defeated by the Boers under General Louis Botha in January, 1900. Obiously, I wasn't there to confirm that!!

The 11th at Flossmoor requires the player to find the pin as they play down 10 as the base of the flag will always be blind. The green slopes left to right and front to back. It used to have a large bunker on the way up the hill that was removed years ago. It was an almost impossible shot for high handicappers that frequented this bunker. It was left as a grass bunker after that change.

The hole was slightly changed in the renovation that will be completed this spring by architect Ray Hearn. A larger new tee was built allowing for more blue and white tee variations and the left bunkers were reshaped and brought in a bit closer to the green.

I think it's one of the best par threes in the south Chicago area.

Greg

[C. Squier]

Never knew you to be such a history buff 

Pics of Flossmoor 11 pre-resto (though the pics do a poor job of showing the elevation changes)

[Greg Ohlendorf]

Oh, how I miss the willows!!   

[Brian_Ewen]

A REAL Spion Kop Hole !

Yes there is a hole up there ...... and a tee .

[Tom Dunne]

Nice one, Brian. That would be the most bad-ass Spion Kop in existence--the fifth at Craigie Hill, Perth, Scotland. This one is in my story... 

[Brian_Ewen]

Tom
Good to hear that a personal fav. will get a mention in your article .

Looking forward to it .

[David_Tepper]

#16 at Brora is called Plateau, but it certainly has Spion Kop-ish tendencies:

http://broragolfclub.co.uk/virtualtour.aspx?EnterHole=16

[Matthew Mollica]

Maybe Paul Daley can chime in and provide some info on the Spiok Kop which was once a part of Flinders Golf Club but now unfortunately NLE. Perhaps Tony Titheridge or Brian Walshe too?

MM

[Brian Walshe]

Flinders Golf Club on the Mornington Peninsula had two holes that no longer exist.  One "Niagara" playing from the cliff down and "Spion Kop" playing from the beach back up to the top of the cliff.  According to which history you read Mackenzie visited around 1903 and if memory serves me correctly they were his creation.  He returned to Flinders on his famous 1926 visit and evidently suggested their removal because they slowed the pace of play.

To quote from the club history,

"Niagara , was a Par 3 of 130 yards played from the top of the cliff down to the green near the beach. Accessed by a steep track, steps led down the cliff face through heavy bracken fern. Spion Kop, the fourth, was played from a tee back almost at high water mark, straight up the face of the cliff to a green on the top located just inside where the Naval Gunnery range fence stands today. A par 4 to a blind green of only 100 yards, it was a big hit up the cliff into the prevailing south westerly wind, and many a ball almost blew back to the tee. As if the shot wasn’t difficult enough, between the tee and the top of the cliff was out-of-bounds!"

[Brian_Ewen]

Spion Kop, the fourth, was played from a tee back almost at high water mark, straight up the face of the cliff to a green on the top located just inside where the Naval Gunnery range fence stands today. A par 4 to a blind green of only 100 yards, it was a big hit up the cliff into the prevailing south westerly wind, and many a ball almost blew back to the tee. As if the shot wasn’t difficult enough, between the tee and the top of the cliff was out-of-bounds!"

My type of golf hole .

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