Did GCA jump the shark with Sebonack?

[Chris Kane]

In the early days, Jack Nicklaus was the subject of scorn on Golfclubatlas.  He was golf architecture's equivalent of France, and very few took his work seriously.

Then he signed on with Tom Doak (GCA's golden boy who can do no wrong, even when he's wrong) to build Sebonack, and perception changed.  Almost overnight, people were talking about the "improvement in his recent work", etc etc.

Was this the moment that golfclubatlas.com jumped the shark?  The moment when it became clear that what people say is as much personality-driven as architecture-driven?

[Tom Huckaby]

If that were all true, then hell yes this website has jumped the shark.

I just don't see it as being true.  Most here still hate Nicklaus'
work.

No?

[TEPaul]

"In the early days, Jack Nicklaus was the subject of scorn on Golfclubatlas.  He was golf architecture's equivalent of France, and very few took his work seriously."


Chris:

That is an analogy I don't understand at all no matter who many different ways I try to cast or consider it.

I'm not much of a fan of the French in some ways but I'd think any historian with half a brain would most certainly have to take both France and its history very seriously indeed!

[TEPaul]

Chris:

Furthermore, I've never had any scorn for Jack Nicklaus's architecture in any phase of the interesting and altering phases of his quite long career in architecture.

I think he brought some pretty unique and important aspects and ideas to the entire evolution of golf course architecture.

The only thing that is sometimes a bit off-putting about Nicklaus to me is the extent of his not particularly well hidden mammouth ego.

But I guess a guy would probably not have reached the heights in golf or architecture that he did without that!  

[Mark_Fine]

Chris,
I'm curious where you have drawn such a conclusion or is this simply your own opinion    
Mark

[Joel_Stewart]

When Jack built Dismal River and didn't go play Sand Hills, it pretty much destoyed his creditability with this crowd.

[Kalen Braley]

When Jack built Dismal River and didn't go play Sand Hills, it pretty much destoyed his creditability with this crowd.

I don't know why it would, he probably just couldn't get access!!  

On a side note though, I was under the impression Jack was first on to the project and Tom Doak came on afterwards.  I suppose Jack could have objected, but likely would have already had a contract in place to build Sebonack.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Upon seeing this thread on January 3, one of my fond hopes for this web site in 2008 is that the moderators will henceforth terminate with extreme prejudice any thread containing the phrase "jump the shark."

Chris Kane,
If I understand correctly--and I admittedly may not as the phrase has become over- and ineptly-used to the point of being meaningless--the phrase "jump the shark" was originally coined to describe ill-conceived attempts to revive a petered-out television show with bizarre plot developments or character changes.    Certainly this little community has a goodly number of bizarre plots, but if you are suggesting that a changing view of Mr. Nicklaus' work, or a softening of the views around here toward Mr. Nicklaus because of his success in working with Mr. Doak somehow means that we have reached a peak and are now on the verge of extinguishing Everything That is Good About Golfclubatlas, then I wholeheartedly disagree.  Even if views have softened toward Mr. Nicklaus, stuff happens and opinions evolve, and what of it?  

If that's not what you're trying to say, please illuminate those of us who are not quite hip enough to appreciate the phrase "jump the shark."

[Marty Bonnar]

Upon seeing this thread on January 3, one of my fond hopes for this web site in 2008 is that the moderators will henceforth terminate with extreme prejudice any thread containing the phrase "jump the shark."

...and ditto to any thread containing the phrase 'terminate with extreme prejudice' presumably?

The WORD you are looking for is DELETE.

You're welcome.

FBD.

[Chris Kane]

That is an analogy I don't understand at all no matter who many different ways I try to cast or consider it.

Tom, France is the nation Americans love to hate.

I'm curious where you have drawn such a conclusion or is this simply your own opinion    

What are you accusing me of?

If that's not what you're trying to say, please illuminate those of us who are not quite hip enough to appreciate the phrase "jump the shark."

"Jump the shark" was first used here almost four years ago, and has been used regularly since by those who yearn for the good old days.  

[Mark_Fine]

Chris,
I was just curious if it was your own opinion of Nicklaus that has changed?  Mine has not.  I still judge each Nicklaus course as I see it and with an open mind.  Furthermore, if my opinion does change, it will take seeing a lot more than just of few of his golf courses post Sebonack.

[Michael Dugger]

Many around here raved about Mayacama long before Sebonack was built.

Starting threads like this only goes towards promoting the very hypocrisy you claim has been committed here.

 

[PThomas]

i would have thought that many here would state that they felt Jack has produced much better designs recently, such as Mayacama as Huck says, Concession, Cabo Del Sol, and yes Sebonack, etc

[Eric_Terhorst]

The WORD you are looking for is DELETE.

You're welcome.

Thanks, Martin, you're right, another over-used phrase.  But I was looking for something stronger than "delete" and expletives are frowned upon.

"Jump the shark" was first used here almost four years ago, and has been used regularly since by those who yearn for the good old days.  

 This response doesn't really illuminate your views of the web site, its participants, Nicklaus or Doak, but thanks anyway.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Chris,
Has his work changed?
It seems to me as if there has been a tonal shift to his work.
At his own admission he says his courses less reflect his game and more the masses.

Are you sure it wasn't GCA that changed Nicklaus?

[Michael Whitaker]

Has Nicklaus's "style" changed over the years? Read Ran's review of the May River Course at Palmetto Bluff and see what you think about one of Nicklaus's new designs:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/mayriver1.html

[Tom_Doak]

I don't entirely understand the concept of "jumping the shark", and I hope I never do.

I do agree that the attitude toward Jack's work on this board has changed somewhat over the past 5 years, and even more so after Sebonack.  I am somewhat tired of hearing that his work changed "because of" Sebonack ... I think he was starting to evolve away from his earlier style a bit before we met, anyway, and if he is building things differently post-Sebonack it's because HE wants to, not because of my input.

Mostly, though, I just came on here to correct Kalen:

Jack's company did start looking at the maps for Sebonack before I ever heard about it, but they weren't under contract when Mark Hissey called me -- that's the first question I asked him, because I didn't want to be accused of "poaching."  After I'd worked on the routing, I signed an agreement with Mr. Pascucci to allow him to use my routing, and then Jack and I met with Michael to discuss working together on the project.  If anyone has represented it differently, they just weren't in possession of all the facts.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I stand corrected, I need to watch my Sebonack video again to get the details right!  

[Anthony Butler]

At his own admission he says his courses less reflect his game and more the masses.

Maybe his courses still reflect his game. Just his game as a 67 year old who plays about 12 rounds a year-which sounds more like the masses than a guy who won 18 majors.

[Michael Christensen]

I take offense with the premise Americans hate France......we saved their country in WWII if you forgot

I don't see much Nicklaus bashing compared to the Fazio and Rees bashing that goes on continuously.....

[Mark_F]

Chris,

Were you stoned last night, or just drunk?

Tom, France is the nation Americans love to hate.

And the evidence for this would be?

Personally, I would have thought Americans hate Australia as much as the French, and for much the same reason; our women are better looking, and we have sex with them more often.

[Michael Robin]

Tom D.

Late in the run of the TV Show "Happy Days" when the ratings were dwindling and the show needed a little something to spice it up, the Producers crafted a very "dramatic" episode where the Fonz was going to jump his bike over a shark tank. This stunt was thought to have been a good idea to create interest in whether or not Fonzie would make it or not, but the false jeopardy in the scene actually marked the beginning of the end of the show. It was the moment when it became clear that there were no more good ideas left in the concept and it should be put to rest. That's Hollywood's definition of when something or someone has "Jumped the Shark".

[Jim Nugent]

Personally, I would have thought Americans hate Australia as much as the French, and for much the same reason; our women are better looking, and we have sex with them more often.

Mark, I think you better supply some photographic proof of the first part of your claim.  

[Sean_A]

Chris,

Were you stoned last night, or just drunk?

Tom, France is the nation Americans love to hate.

And the evidence for this would be?

Personally, I would have thought Americans hate Australia as much as the French, and for much the same reason; our women are better looking, and we have sex with them more often.

Mark

I want to see photographic evidence as well.  The women may or may not have clothes on.

I know the US has a load immigrants, but there didn't get to be some 300 million of us without some sex going on.  

Without a doubt France has become the recent whipping boy for a load of Americans.  The problem is, Americans don't believe anybody should say NO to them.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Without a doubt France has become the recent whipping boy for a load of Americans.  The problem is, Americans don't believe anybody should say NO to them.

That will no doubt owe at least something to the fine example set by the last 5 UK administrations,which have steadfastly refused to contemplate saying no to the US.