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Phil Benedict

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Things You Blame on the Course
« on: January 03, 2008, 01:20:09 PM »
Somebody on the scratch golfer thread said low handicappers are always looking to blame someone beside themselves when they mess up.

What are some of the old reliable excuses in terms of architecture, maintenance or set up?  A few of my favorites are:

1)  Unfair hole position;
2)  Poor turf quality (hard and thin) on short-game shots you have to hit softly;
3)  Ball stopping short of the green because of soft turf;
4)  Unpredictability of bounce on un-irrigated areas;
5)  Poor putting because of slow greens.


JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2008, 01:36:24 PM »
Double hazards....

...trees in front of bunkers
...trees around water, where when you drop, you still have to navigate trees
...bunker on the edge of water, where when you drop, you have to drop in the bunker or when you land in the bunker you still have to carry water
...blind drives with centerline bunkers
...blind doglegs
...pin placements on false approaches or backstops
...forced carry from a severly downhill sloping fairway

There's probably more, but these are specific examples that believe it or not I've encountered during my golf career.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

JohnH

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2008, 01:40:12 PM »
Somebody on the scratch golfer thread said low handicappers are always looking to blame someone beside themselves when they mess up.

What are some of the old reliable excuses in terms of architecture, maintenance or set up?  A few of my favorites are:

1)  Unfair hole position;



I've heard that one more than any other with the exception of maybe the slow/bumpy putting surface.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2008, 01:44:16 PM »
To add a few more:

Non-level tee boxes
No yardage markers
Greens with bare patches
Narrow tree/water lined fairways
Unraked bunkers
Ball coming to rest in a divot
Spike marks on the green
Distracting off course noise

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2008, 01:47:36 PM »
Uh oh Kalen....

I have a feeling you're going to erk a lot folks on this board with:

No yardage markers
Unraked bunkers
Ball in a divot

**waiting patiently for the ensuing debate :) **
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2008, 01:52:21 PM »
Uh oh Kalen....

I have a feeling you're going to erk a lot folks on this board with:

No yardage markers
Unraked bunkers
Ball in a divot

**waiting patiently for the ensuing debate :) **

Not a problem JS...

Just answering the question that was presented by Phil...excuses are excuses no matter if some think they are valid or not.

That being said, I've slugged it out in here over the bogus "ball in the divot" rule so no need to re-hash it. I will go to the grave with my opinion on that one.   ;)

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2008, 02:00:10 PM »
One of my favorites is the "this is nothing like the practice putting green", especially when uttered on the tenth or so hole in the round. ::)
Jim Thompson

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2008, 02:01:35 PM »
The cart girl can't here soon enough......

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2008, 02:05:05 PM »
One of my favorites is the "this is nothing like the practice putting green", especially when uttered on the tenth or so hole in the round. ::)

I've heard this one quite a few times.  Another one I like is:

"How can that putt not break left" or some variation.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2008, 02:15:40 PM »
I recently played a course on very hilly ground which had several blind drives. No big deal to me in general, but this particular course had a couple of holes where the drive was blind to a curving fairway, and they had let the grass three feet from the fairway grow to full length (they called them "natural areas," but it was clearly just grass that they used to mow and decided to let get knee deep). I blame a lost ball on that course, because my drive looked great as it flew over the hill, but was utterly unfindable in the knee deep stuff.

I also blame the course for the three balls I DID find !
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2008, 03:18:20 PM »
Regarding balls in divots, the new issue of Golf Industry Magazine has an article by Tim Moragahan (formerly of USGA fame) on how courses can replace divots with a mix of sand and soil for tournaments.  Apparently, competitors in USGA tourneys were complaining about the unpredictability of shots when playing out of divots so they changed the procedure.

One more hit to "rub of the green."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2008, 03:24:56 PM »
On the subject of divots, I blame the fates but not anyone else (certainly not myself).  It's not as easy to personalize, whereas a person is responsible for a funky hole location.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2008, 04:03:59 PM »
Jeff,

I think thats great, but my contention is that one should be able to lift and replace and play them as ground under repair, because thats what a divot actually is.    

As a comparison if they said you couldn't fix a ball mark on the green if your ball came to rest on it, then at least they would be consitent...but this is not so!!!

In the end I know I must accept this because...well because the USGA says so.

John Moore II

Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2008, 04:38:48 PM »
My thought on a divot is that if there is not any sand in it, it should be played as it lies, however, if someone has made the effort to put sand in it, its ground under repair, someone has made the effort to fix the damage. But what do I know...

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2008, 08:24:32 PM »
Well. this has been discussed fully before but:

A divot is not ground under repair.

Ground under repair is a hole made by a greenkeeper, or unusual damage to the course, or anything so declared by the committee.

Divots are not made by greenkeepers.

They are not unusual damage- they are a direct result of playing golf. Unusual dmamge would be, for example, a rut made in soft ground by a vehicle of some sort, something that is not, sahll I say, generic to the course.

Because they are a normal part of the game, they cannot be declare GUR by the committee.

I personally prefer that the divot be replaced in tis hole. However, some grass types and soil conditions heal better if the divot hole is filled with seed and soil mix. Thye holes must be repaired for the health of the course. When P. Stewart complained about the sand filled divlt on hole # 12 at Olympic, he was hitting a short iron, I think he would have reacted differently if he had to hit a long iron- in fact he would have praied god that the divot had been filled.

Of course the USGA and the Tours and etc. are always trying to find better ways to do things- in this example create a better way to fill divots that provides a better playing surface- but the point is we still must play the course as we find it- divots, divot haoles, sand filled divot holes, and all.

BTW, the green has always been treated differently in the rules. Shots "through the green" are played primarily through the air, whereas shots on the green are rolled along the ground. That's a pretty significant difference, and more than justifies what some might see as an "inconsistencey" in the rules.

"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2008, 08:43:34 PM »
Jim,

Certainly understand the arguement, and you have spelled it very well here.  For me I guess its the arbitrary nature of the rules thats a tough pill to swallow, especially being a 0's and 1's kind of guy who works in the tech industry.

But rules have changed over the years, and thats why I think this one can change as well. For example, it used to be that you were never able to life your ball, no matter where it lie, but thats changed.  Or on the green, you could stymie someone, but thats changed.  I just don't see why it was ok then and not now.  If you hit a ball in the fairway, why should you not be rewarded with at least a good lie on grass to play from.  And just because the game from fairway to green is an aerial one, does not mean that a ground option should be eliminated.

As for greens getting "special" status, its only this way because someone said so and deemed it as such.

Kalen

Michael Powers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2008, 12:18:46 AM »
There is only one thing that you can legitimately complain about on any golf course, and that's a putt of any length which gets a good piece of the hole from the high side, with good speed, and fails to drop.  Everything else is just bitchin' if you ask me.
HP

Michael Powers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2008, 12:21:23 AM »
Also, I don't understand all this divot talk, dig it out of there and go try to make a putt for par, besides, it's the same for everyone, just ask Payne Stewart, well, maybe not.
HP

Carter Hindes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2008, 07:42:44 AM »
Michael,

Why do think missing a putt of any length which gets a good piece of the hole from the high side, with good speed, and fails to drop is an excuse to blame the course?

If it lips out, you obviously didn't hit it "Good" enough.
Carter Hindes

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2008, 08:52:18 AM »

When P. Stewart complained about the sand filled divlt on hole # 12 at Olympic, he was hitting a short iron, I think he would have reacted differently if he had to hit a long iron- in fact he would have praied god that the divot had been filled.



Payne Stewart had two main complaints about US Open courses which he changed his mind about shortly after a conversation with an USGA offical(Tom Meeks, I think), one was the sand-filled divot, it was explained to him that this was a rub of the green and he should consider practising from such lies in order to be able to judge them properly.

The other was converting short par 5's into long par 4's. He felt the greens weren't designed for long irons, he was then told that if he wished he could lay up on these holes and play a wedge into them, as soon as tour players started doing this the holes would be played as par 5's and not 4's.

He was advocating practising from sand-filled divots to fellow tour players shortly afterwards.
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2008, 09:15:58 AM »
Phil -

Sometimes this site becomes far too "us v. them" and my sanctimonometer just goes off.

How about Joe Daley, who at the 2000 Q School had a putt descend completely into the hole, ricochet off a grotesquely misplaced cup liner, and come to rest back on the green.

Would you look at him in the eye and say, "come on Joe, you have nothing at all to complain about, it's just the rub of the green"?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2008, 09:28:21 AM »
There is only one thing that you can legitimately complain about on any golf course, and that's a putt of any length which gets a good piece of the hole from the high side, with good speed, and fails to drop.  Everything else is just bitchin' if you ask me.
Michael
There is no such putt. If if it gets a 'good piece of the hole from the high side, and fails to drop' - the speed was wrong. See Tiger's put for 62 at last year's PGA - great, great putt, almost perfect... but not.

However, to sympathise, I have seen holes cut in such ludicrous spots that holing out from other than directly below the hole is pretty much impossible. Now, I agree that the player should not be golfing his ball to the wrong part of the green and expecting an easy putt. But when 80% of the green is wrong, maybe we have a bad pin...
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 09:33:34 AM by Lloyd_Cole »

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2008, 09:36:16 AM »
Nothing,
except that the days are too short...
and that there's way too much snow on it...

My only real complaint:
no option to take a cart...


Most of the comments I've seen so far are the specific reasons why golf is too expensive now...

But I can critique...

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2008, 09:38:10 AM »
To Lloyd:

when 80% of the green is wrong, it's because the green is too fast, forget 11 on the stimp, think 8.5 and it's all right

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Things You Blame on the Course
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2008, 09:39:08 AM »

My only real complaint:
no option to take a cart...


Philippe

You can always have mine :)

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