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Nick Church

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OK, so I've read several time how Dr. MacKenzie applied the military training he received on camouflage principles.  Is there a biography that discusses that aspect from his exposure during military service & training to how he particularly applied it to golf course design?

(I just finished The Match, now working on Tommy's Honor, and I can see where I'm going to need at least another book to get me through to golfing weather in late March.  Either you all help me, or else I'll have to crack open Trifkovic's "Sword of the Prophet", again).
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 05:37:51 PM by Nick Church »

David Stamm

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Nick,


   Doak is the expert in this area, but I will say this. The camouflage that MacKenzie apllied to his designs culminated in the way he could tie in the lines of bunkers from certain angles and therefore decieve the depth perception of the golfer. Ultimately this would obviously lead to doubt as to club selection. This was more impactful in the GA since much of club selection was done by "eye". The 13th at CPC is a perfect example of this. This was something AM learned in the Boer war by the enemy's trench/bunker techniques. Not so much as hiding their presence, but hiding their overall numbers. In other words, the attackers would not really know just how many of the enemy were there because of the way they could hide or camouflage their numbers.  
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

John Kavanaugh

I asked this on another thread and of course received zero replies.  Are there any examples of camo at Pasa?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 07:52:24 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Tom_Doak

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Nick:

The biography of MacKenzie which I co-wrote is now out of print, and apparently very hard to find used.  Unfortunately I don't have any extra copies to sell you.

I do have a copy of two articles MacKenzie wrote on the subject of camouflage -- both for presentation to military engineers.  I'd be glad to print an extra copy for you, if you want to be responsible for making copies for the 50 other people who may ask.

His most interesting story from the Boer War was a battle where the British Army went to attack an enemy encampment on the other side of a river.  On their approach, they went right past the real Boer platoon, who were camouflaged in the foreground, and who then pinned the British against the river and killed about 1000 troops with practically no losses.  

MacKenzie was adamant that the British failed to learn anything from this and continued to build easily-located trenches in which so many troops died during the Great War, despite his efforts at education.  Unfortunately, he had a personality clash with the higher-ups in the military who were considered the experts on the subject, so they ignored many of his ideas.


John:

I'd be happy to show you examples of camouflage on any MacKenzie course, but it's hard to describe them ... it's all dependent on your eye level and position.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 08:23:08 PM by Tom_Doak »

Nick Church

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All --- thank you.

Mr. Doak --- yes, sir, I tried to find your book.  No luck, as you noted.  I'm hoping my father's love for pawn shops & antique stores might provide a stroke of luck.

No problem --- I have Adobe PDF so I can provide digital copies to those that ask.  Thank you.


Lou_Duran

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The caddies at CPC as well as most anyone who has played the course will point out how the fairway bunkers are invisible when looking back toward the tee from the green.  While I suppose that this is neat, and perhaps even a camouflaging technique, I don't know how it's relevant unless the course is being played backwards.

#3 at Pasatiempo with the front bunker well short of the green and the uphill orientation of the hole may be an example of camouflage (making the hole look shorter than it actually plays).

rocket

After reading TD's biography on Mackenzie.   I did some research on camouflage and a good book but hard to find is
 DPM "Disruptive Pattern Material"  It's two books one charts out the history of camo from it's roots in nature to its adaption by the military.   The other is the camouflage issued to soldiers of 107 nations around the world.

Jeff_Brauer

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The caddies at CPC as well as most anyone who has played the course will point out how the fairway bunkers are invisible when looking back toward the tee from the green.  

I always wonder why people make such a big deal about that.  If you slope bunkers up to be visible from the normal play line, of course you are going to not see the sand while looking back, since it slopes away from you.  All you see is the support mounding.  I have seen similar things written about RTJ bunkers, and had someone make a big deal about it up at Giants Ridge.

I would be interested to hear TD's locations (if not description, as I understand how hard that might be) of camoflage at CD.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Pete Lavallee

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John:

I'd be happy to show you examples of camouflage on any MacKenzie course, but it's hard to describe them ... it's all dependent on your eye level and position.

Tom,

This is an excellent topic that frankly has never been fully explored on GCA. My observation from reading the book that Tom coauthored was that the British continulally built straight trenches that could be easily observered from the ground or the air. The Boers on the other hand built trenches that followed a natural pattern, mimicking nature; my description would be unusually well built containment mounding. It was not that they tricked the British into how many of them were concealed as David stated, but that the British had NO idea that they were there because they were looking for straitghly dug trenches; which the Boers did use as a decoys.  

So how does this tie in with architecture? To me it falls more into the categorey of "Build the bunkers on the hillocks, not the hollows", which is a tenent that he expressed in his books. Certainly Pasatiempo is a perfect example of this tenant. The bunkers are all beautifully crafted into hillocks, where they are imposing from the players point of view and invisible from behind. How exactly does this tie in with camoflauge technique? Please feel free to site specific examples from Pasatiempo as it is a course very familiar to those in this discussion.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

TEPaul

I think this is a good reason the search engine on here should be more understandable or easy to use----eg the principles of camouflage MacKenzie observed from Boer military trenches in the Boer War and how he applied those principles to military tactics and strategies as well as to golf course architecture has been explained a number of times and pretty comprehensively.

The thing to stress is the differences and distinctions in the use of camouflage, particularly trench camouflage in a military context or application, from the context and application of its use in golf course architecture.

If those differences and distinctions aren't made and explained it seems too many tend to assume Mackenzie was trying to hide his bunker and hazard features and such from the golfer.

He really wasn't trying to do anything of the kind. What he was trying to hide was the juxtaposition of the "man-made" formations of earth from the natural formations of earth. We, in golf architecture tend to call that "tying in". By doing this well (as well as the Boers did in the construction of their military trenches) the idea was that golfers would not be able to tell the difference of what was man-made and what was natural.

Obviously, the Boers did this with their military trenches so the British would not know where they were and therefore would not shoot at them and kill them. In this way clearly the Boers were trying to hide what they made from the British by making it appear that the trenches they made were part of the natural landscape. But that is not all the Boers made in military trenches in the Boer War. They ALSO made military trenches that were remarkably man-made and artificial looking just as the British did. Except unlike the British the Boers were not in them. They were merely dumby trenches to draw British fire away from where the Boers really were. And obviously this modus operandi by the Boers was pretty much the ultimate in an attempt at visual deception!

But Mackenzie was certainly not trying to hide his hazard features and such from the oncoming golfer, in fact his sand bunkering was starkly obvious just like a lot of the natural sand areas of say CPC. The fact that the sand bunkers were not visible if the golfer turned around and looked back at a hole he just played was merely a curious by-product. I very much doubt this was ever Mackenzie's primary intention to do, and in a sense something like that isn't much more than the result of a very well done stage set if someone looks at it from BEHIND the stage rather than from the perspective of the audience's seats.

There may’ve been some visual deception involved in Mackenzie’s attempts to make his man-made features look like they were naturally occurring but no more than naturally occurs in Nature anyway.

Matter of fact, if Mackenzie subscribed to some of Max Behr’s theories on naturalism in golf architecture which I believe he very much did, the idea was that naturally occurring landforms and really good man-made imitations of them were a whole lot less deceptive to a golfer’s perception and visual perspective of distance and such than starkly man-made looking golf architectural features were and could be. Behr’s point was that natural green sites and such which flowed naturally with and into the overall natural landscape were easier to determine distance and such in than some man-made artificial abrupt change in the landscape would be.

On the other hand, and in a strictly military context and application, Mackenzie constantly lobbied the British military to listen to him and his observations of Boer military trenching for the simple reason he felt if they did that a whole lot less British soldiers would die, and that was obviously true!

And Mackenzie never really stopped in his fixation on the effects of camouflage, not just in a golf architectural sense and application but in a military context and application.

In Doak’s book there is a copy of a letter Mackenzie wrote to President Franklin Roosevelt imploring him to employ his trench camouflage techniques. Mackenzie went so far as to proclaim to Roosevelt that if he did that it would essentially serve the purpose of ending all war as militaries would basically never know where the hell their enemies were they would be so well hidden!

It appears Roosevelt didn’t take his advice and perhaps never even answered him. The reason for that may be pretty obvious in a historical context as Roosevelt was getting to that point where he realized the nature of warfare was changing to such an extent that camouflage techniques had been rendered useless or were about to be.

I mean Roosevelt was not that far from understanding that nuclear weapons were close to a reality and no matter what the Japanese, for instance, did to try to hide them they were probably never going to be able to hide such as Nagasaki and Hiroshima and certainly Tokyo from Roosevelt’s B-29s bombers with nuclear payloads aboard them!

I hope this tells you everything you'd ever want to know about Mackenzie's application of camouflage to golf architecture, Nick, and the differences and distintions he understood in it between camouflage's application to warfare in a military context and camouflage's application to golf course architecture to produce the look of far more naturalism.

Some of the same principles and purposes apply to both, but as I hope you can see from the above, by no means all of them.




« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 12:28:49 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

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If TePaul is right, and I suspect he is, here is what I take out of MacKenzie's use of camoflage principals as it relates to golf design (short version)

When moving earth for golf features:

Mimic the natural slopes by perhaps no more than doubling the existing slopes

Pay careful attention to the edges where earthwork ties back in.  Specifically:

  Tie in on a curved  - not straight - edge, to best mimic rolling slopes

  Use more fill at the base of built (and probably more constant at, say 4:1) slopes when blending into existing (and more variable slopes, which looks better than bringing a constant slope right down to a flatter slope.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have always felt that his mentions of some kind of mysterious camo techniques were about 99% marketing BS and would make the Hall of Fame Top 10 GCA Marketing BS easily....... :D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Master Jeffrey Brauer Esq:

What is this bullshit "IF" at the beginning of your last post?

"IF" TEPaul is right........????

I thought by this time just on the simple mathematical principle of PROBABILITY alone you understood I AM virtually ALWAYS right!

Unfortunately, the same neither will nor can ever be true of Patrick Mucci.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 12:34:59 PM by TEPaul »

Pete Lavallee

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TEPaul,

It appears Jeff concisely sumarrized in 4 lines what it took you 15 paragraphs to convey!

I'm still waiting foir specific examples of camoflauge techinques in evidence at Pasatiempo; surely someone can come up with at least one example?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

TEPaul

"Mimic the natural slopes by perhaps no more than doubling the existing slopes."

JeffB:

I once heard this from that mad-man, gyro-gearloose of an architect, Ron Forse, who is definitely into some really natural dimensions (both inside his own head as well as in his architecture) that the idea is to always remember to change the rate of change of slopes and such in man-made architecture because generally on most natural landforms (although perhaps not all everywhere) THAT IS the way of natural earth formations!

When you or anyone else in architecture gets into such statements as 'no more than doubling' you are thinking too much in some MAN-conscious MATHEMATICAL way of some kind of standardization, and when an architect gets into such things too much Nature herself just might slap him upside the head somewhere down the line!

I suggest you try harder to develop a completely random mind as it appears Ron Forse has done in not just golf architecture but in all things!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 12:48:06 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

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TePaul,

Of course you are always right....Congratulations, you are now an honorary wife to golf club atlas.com!


I think building naturally varying slopes rather than constant 3,4, or 5 to 1 slopes is a great add to my short list.

I try to tell shapers to "nick", "wobble" or whatever the slopes they have built first. I have also tried downloading actual contour lines from topo maps and resizing them to draw more natural contour lines.

BTW, I think I heard the double the grade comment from either Brian Phillips or Tony Ristola on this site. At least, it was one of our Euro contributors. I don't think it alway applies, but its not a bad general principal.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Stamm

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I'm still waiting foir specific examples of camoflauge techinques in evidence at Pasatiempo; surely someone can come up with at least one example?







"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hmm, don't know about the camo in those pix - hey I can see the golf cart and have and open shot! ;)

The ninth green photo is a good example at what I think TEPaul is talking about. Using the techniques I describe, its hard to tell where the natural slopes are and the built ones start.  For example, I presume the non overseeded slope below the clubhouse is at about natural grade, whereas everything around the green was built.  

We know that, but the grades match pretty well.  The skyline of the slope above the back bunker mimics the slope by the clubhouse, for example.

would still like to hear TD on this subject!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike McGuire

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I think this is a good reason the search engine on here should be more understandable or easy to use----

TP

try this

go to google.com and type in   boer site:golfclubatlas.com



This restricts the search to this website. I got five hits on boer, six on camouflage.

TEPaul

"I'm still waiting foir specific examples of camoflauge techinques in evidence at Pasatiempo; surely someone can come up with at least one example?"

DavidS:

Very nice photos there that show a natural looking flow be it actually natural or man-made by Mackenzie and crew.

But it may not be enough to just show Pete Lavallee those photos. You may also need to actually explain to him what he's looking at in a "camouflage" context!  ;)

David Stamm

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The ninth green photo is a good example at what I think TEPaul is talking about. Using the techniques I describe, its hard to tell where the natural slopes are and the built ones start.  For example, I presume the non overseeded slope below the clubhouse is at about natural grade, whereas everything around the green was built.  

We know that, but the grades match pretty well.  The skyline of the slope above the back bunker mimics the slope by the clubhouse, for example.

 


This probably isn;t the best photo of the ninth, but it's all I have....


"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom_Doak

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I am not comfortable trying to generalize about MacKenzie's use of camouflage techniques.  I don't want to put words in his mouth.  

But, I don't think it was all about marketing, or that he had a few hard and fast rules for making it work.  (Note that while he was happy to codify golf architecture into 13 rules, he did not do the same for camouflage in golf construction.)  He did frequently build LARGE mounds in order to site his bunkers, and yet you rarely hear anyone comment on the mounding on his courses.

One of his points about camouflage is that Nature is frequently much more random and abrupt than man gives her credit for -- i.e. a ravine may start out of relatively calm ground.  Many of the diagrams in the camo articles show features so rugged that you think they'd never blend into the landscape, but they do ... like those wild painted patterns which are sometimes used to camouflage warships.

Let's just say that the mathematics of fractals (which have been shown to produce all sorts of natural shapes) are very much more complicated than Jeff's numbers, and I believe it is likely that MacKenzie, from years of study of camouflage for other purposes, had an eye for it more than any architect since.

I will try tomorrow to get the articles copied for distribution.

P.S. to Jeff:  I showed you one of the examples at Crystal Downs -- that huge fairway bunker to the left of #5, which he built huge so that it looked in scale with the greenside bunkers on #17 when viewed from that tee.  Another one is that little shelf in the fairway about 100 yards short of the green on #1 -- I always forget it's there until I'm right up on it, but it foreshortens the distance of that hole considerably, and I don't think it's completely natural since the shelf is less abrupt to either side of the hole.

Pete Lavallee

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"But it may not be enough to just show Pete Lavallee those photos. You may also need to actually explain to him what he's looking at in a "camouflage" context!  ;)

Well if it's camoflauged, just how will I be able to see it!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jeff_Brauer

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First, David, my bad....while No. 9 also exhibits those qualities, I posted thinking the top photo was of 9 in front of the clubhouse.....

TD,

I don't doubt that Mac had serious interest in camoflage but I think there was a "mystic marketing element" to it, just as all the gca have.  Maybe it was just his pet thing, like Tilly and the Hells Half Acre.

In any event, I don't think its that widespread in his designs. I can't imagine Mac giving Russell a dissertation on "fractal theory", and having it stick more than three minutes after the Good Doctor boarded the boat and having that put into golf courses that looked substantially like other Mac courses. ;)
For that matter, I giggle at the vision of Mac trying to explain it to the horses pulling the scoops! ;D

I can't tell from my CD photos whether there is great foreshortening on No. 1 but do recall No. 5.  I understand that putting things in scale and creating false illusions could well be a part of his camoflage techniques, in addition to blending earthworks.  I also realize that nature can change quite abruptly, as evidenced by the ditches at Pasa, among others.

But am still skeptical, just as I am of the famous distance deception from the valley in front of 15 at Pinehurst. The Ross green detail only says "take dirt from the front to build the back" so historians must presume in that case that is all Ross had in mind.

At least Mac wrote more on the theory to support the notion that it was a special component of the design.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Neil_Crafter

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Tom and Jeff
I think in this discussion it would be useful to consider that camouflage's primary role is to disguise in some way and while there are also elements of deception tied up in this, we can also apply deception principles in golf through trompe l'oeuil (trick of the eye) to make some element, such as a green or hazard appear further or closer away from the golfer. Camouflage's primary objective is surely to make the object being camouflaged disappear into its background so that it is not noticed by the viewer. Is that a part of golf design do you think? I would tend to put camouflage and trompe l'oeuil into two different (but related) categories.

While I am sure Dr Mac was passionate about military camouflage I am also confident there was more than some element of marketing in it as he applied it to golf.

cheers Neil

David Stamm

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A few pics of Pasa from their site....


The 3rd




The 4th

"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr