Are the best inland courses in the UK as good as the best US parkland courses?

[Phil Benedict]

The pictures in the Swinley Forest thread look really cool.  The courses that get the most attention in the UK are the seaside courses, and deservedly so.  But are courses like Walton Heath and other inland courses close to the standard of our top parkland courses like Winged Foot and Oakmont.  I don't necessarily mean as tournament venues since the UK courses can't compete for the Open, but in terms of architecture and playing experience.

[Jon Wiggett]

I would say yes and very comfortably so. It is just that they are different and it comes down to what you prefer.

I can say that having being fortunate enough to play Pine Valley, almost the only inland course I have played in the states, that it was awesome and certainly amongst the top few courses I have played. I would however say that I have played many lesser courses here in GB that I have enjoyed just as much although they were not quite up to the same alround caliber.

And no even PV doesn't hold it for me against a good links.

[Bill_McBride]

Beau Desert and Delamere Forest, two Herbert Fowler gems, are my only UK parkland experience, and they were as much fun and as interesting as any US parkland courses I've played.  Is it the heather and gorse?  I actually think it may be the low key, pleasant style of golf in the UK as much as any physical differences.

[TEPaul]

I think courses like Winged Foot and Aronimink and such could probably be categorized as "parkland" courses but certainly not Oakmont or Pine Valley or even Merion.

And I certainly wouldn't call most of the heathland courses, including Swinley Forest, "parkland".

[Phil Benedict]

Tom,

I realize there is a problem of terms here - healthland, parkland etc.  What I was trying to get at was inland vs. inland.

I think you said on another thread that the model for PV was the UK heathland courses, to the extent there was one.

[Tom_Doak]

Phil:

If you're comparing inland courses straight up, then the answer to your question is no.  The best inland courses in the UK rate an 8 on the Doak scale, and there are only a few of those.  The US has a dozen inland courses which get 9's and 10's.

Playing host to a championship DOES have something to do with it, as US championship courses are mostly inland, while British courses aren't.  Some of the 9's in my book (Winged Foot for example) probably ascended to that level because of their championship pedigree.  But even then, there is nothing inland in the UK to match Pine Valley, Merion, Crystal Downs, Shinnecock, Prairie Dunes, Riviera etc.

[Pete Lavallee]

Ahh,  

But we get to play all their 8's; courses like Walton Heath Old and New, West Sussex, Royal Ashdown Forest, Woking and the Addignton have all let me play at their wonderful venues. Sadly my resume is greatly lacking the 9's and 10's of inland US golf.

Trust me Phil, these courses are fun to play and by no means would they be considered easy, in fact their lack of par 5 holes makes them much tougher to score on. They are much quicker to play also.

[Jon Wiggett]

Phil:

If you're comparing inland courses straight up, then the answer to your question is no.  The best inland courses in the UK rate an 8 on the Doak scale, and there are only a few of those.  The US has a dozen inland courses which get 9's and 10's.

Playing host to a championship DOES have something to do with it, as US championship courses are mostly inland, while British courses aren't.  Some of the 9's in my book (Winged Foot for example) probably ascended to that level because of their championship pedigree.  But even then, there is nothing inland in the UK to match Pine Valley, Merion, Crystal Downs, Shinnecock, Prairie Dunes, Riviera etc.

Tom D,

I would start off by saying that all scales how ever well devised are always going to be reliant on personal opinion and often situation, mood, weather, etc at the time when a course is assessed. Having played PV I have had a taste of how great that course is and have to say that I had a magical day there. I could not say however that my enjoyment or the quality of the golfing experience was any less at numerous inland courses in GB. That the one had a 10 on the Doak Scale and another maybe only a 7 doesn't really come into consideration.

I would also ask if you think that some of the US Open courses are actually worse during the tournament in the attempt to Tiger proof them and if so could not holding a tournament be detrimental to the course?

[Phil Benedict]

It's interesting to me that there isn't a single (inland) Doak 9 or 10 in the UK.  With all the great architects who worked there, you would think there would be at least one.  Possible reasons for the absence of highest ranking courses might be:

1)  Greater awareness that no matter how good the inland design, links golf is inherently superior;

2)  Impossibility of aspiring to greatness by hosting the Open Championship;

3)  Rising economic power during the Golden Age fueled ambitious design efforts in the US, whereas UK was in economic decline because of WWI during the Golden Age.

[Mark Pearce]

It's interesting to me that there isn't a single (inland) Doak 9 or 10 in the UK.  With all the great architects who worked there, you would think there would be at least one.  Possible reasons for the absence of highest ranking courses might be:

1)  Greater awareness that no matter how good the inland design, links golf is inherently superior;

2)  Impossibility of aspiring to greatness by hosting the Open Championship;

3)  Rising economic power during the Golden Age fueled ambitious design efforts in the US, whereas UK was in economic decline because of WWI during the Golden Age.

4) Imperfection of the "measurement".

Much as we all value Tom D's input here I have to admit to feeling somewhat uncomfortable with the absolute authority some here invest in the scores in the CG.  It sometimes reminds me of the lemming like allegiance shown to Robert Parker on his wine discussion board and, just like wine,golf course architecture is far too subjective and inluenced by so many external transient factors (weather, company, etc.) that to give some form of absolute value to any score is dangerous.

Just like Parker's wine scores Doak's scale is a useful guide, which we shold all attempt to calibrate against our own tastes.

Having said which, if there is an inland 10 in the UK I haven't played it (always possible).  The best inland UK courses are, however, wonderful and the suggestion that there are 12 better courses in the US doesn't surprise me, given how many courses there are in the US.

[Phil Benedict]

Mark,

Parker bases his ratings on a single tasting among hundreds or perhaps thousands of tastings.  People in the know about olfactory (sp?) senses claim what he does is impossible.

[Dan Boerger]

Phil - I disagree with that. One may not agree with Parker's preferences (and good for you if you don't since you'll likely get teh wine you want cheaper), but I can't recall anyone in the know suggesting he wasn't a consistent and skilled taster. - Dan

[Phil Benedict]

Phil - I disagree with that. One may not agree with Parker's preferences (and good for you if you don't since you'll likely get teh wine you want cheaper), but I can't recall anyone in the know suggesting he wasn't a consistent and skilled taster. - Dan

Dan,

It has been said that no one can taste as much wine as Parker and retain their edge throughout the entire tasting.  I believe my source is The Emperor of Wine which is a pretty good read.  Parker of course says otherwise.  The man tastes a lot of wine, that's for sure.

[Mark Pearce]

Phil,

I don't have a palate that calibrates with Parker (so you're right, that's a good thing) and I think his influence has had a negative impact on wine (homogenised "gobby" fruit bombs abound) but I think he is universally acknowledged as a wonderfgully consistent taster, even by those who strongly disagree with his tastes.

Mark

[Sean_A]

I really don't know how good the top US parkland courses compare to UK inland courses.  I have only played Oakland Hills & Pinehurst in the States.  I think Doak over-rates both of these courses.  I think Pinehurst is the better of the two (strictly looking at the course, but I would rather play Oakland Hills) and would say Pinehurst is more like an 8 if I am looking at a place like Ballybunion being the standard bearer of a 10. There is no way I can be convinced that Pinehurst is in the class of Ballybunion.  Having said that, I think the best inland course in Britain I have seen is Swinley Forest and I would say its about an 8 as well.  

Just the sheer number of top US inland courses leads me to believe that Britain can't really compete across the board.  There are so many courses that barely get a look in the States, like Old Town for instance, that would compete with the best of Britain.  

But I have always said that trying to isolate one's feeling for a course from the experience of visiting the club is near on impossible - I don't care who you are or what you do.  We all have golf baggage that guides our thinking - for better or worse.  I for one welcome this side of the experience and freely admit that I am influenced by history and ambience.  

Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've been fortunate to have played many of the great inland courses in both the USA and Britain. Tom D. is right in saying that the best championship caliber inland courses are in the USA.  Beyond the top 15 or so courses that qualify for that designation I would call it a toss up for the next twenty spots.  Sunningdale, Alton Heath, St. George's Hill, Swinley Forest and others are simply stunning.  The United States is deeper in quality but we have more courses so it makes sense.  What we don't have and wish we did were heathland courses.  Next to links golf it is my favorite kind of course.  

[Mark Smolens]

My question is, from someone with limited time and (more importantly, perhaps, limited cash), why would anyone from the US fly across the pond to play anywhere but a links course?

[Lloyd_Cole]

My question is, from someone with limited time and (more importantly, perhaps, limited cash), why would anyone from the US fly across the pond to play anywhere but a links course?

The current exchange rate makes it difficult, but, the heathland courses are really something - the atmosphere in the clubs is very different to what you'd find in the top US clubs.. not always in a good way, but it is certainly interesting to see what they can do on budgets which are a fraction of their US (rough equivalent) counterparts.

[Jim Nugent]

I have only played Oakland Hills & Pinehurst in the States.  I think Doak over-rates both of these courses.  I think Pinehurst is the better of the two (strictly looking at the course, but I would rather play Oakland Hills) and would say Pinehurst is more like an 8 if I am looking at a place like Ballybunion being the standard bearer of a 10. There is no way I can be convinced that Pinehurst is in the class of Ballybunion.  

Doak says a course mounts its defense at the greens, or something along those lines.  Doesn't Pinehurst do that as well or better than anything else out there?  I wonder if that is one reason Tom rates the course so highly.  

[Jon Wiggett]

Doak says a course mounts its defense at the greens, or something along those lines.  Doesn't Pinehurst do that as well or better than anything else out there?  I wonder if that is one reason Tom rates the course so highly.  

But Jim,

shouldn't a course with a 10 be a complete course? This would mean that defenses at the green only would not be enough! Surely a 10 must be a challenge from the tee as well.

Also, isn't the Doak scale about the GCA of a course in which case holding a major should be irrelevant to its score. I can not say from personal experience but from what I have seen on the box I find many of the US Open courses very restricted in the type of challenge they offer.

[Matthew Hunt]

What about Loch Lomond? I haven't played it (know a former member  ) but it looks great and been around a lot of Scotland and this is along with the Turnberry coast has the among best scenery in the country if not the world. The architecture does not seem to let it down judging by Ran's profile http://www.golfclubatlas.com/lochlomond1.html

Its the best parkland on the European Tour. Has anyone played it?

[John Chilver-Stainer]

What about the King's Course, Gleneagles?

[Dan Boerger]

Mark - As Lloyd mentioned, they can be special places. Sandy soil asssures good drainage (at least it always has for me), and heather is unique stuff to play out of. The starter at Walton Heath said that if you can't get a 4 iron on it, take an 8 iron. Good advice. As the Swinley photos show, there a lots of nuances and with so many short(er) holes to smallish greens, angle of attack becomes amplified. The atmosphere can be pretty formal, even stuffy, but when in Rome ...

- Dan

[Paul_Turner]

Phil

Yes they are as good.  But as Sean points out, there are obviously far fewer of them.  Most of them are quite short in comparison, because the clubs aren't at all bothered to change to "championship" specs.   (And you could stretch many of them quite easily).

[Marty Bonnar]

Matthew,
I think it would certainly be very fair to say that Loch Lomond is the BEST inland course in Scotland. I can't think of a near competitor in fact. Lots of pretenders to the throne, but all mere Princes Regent. It's utterly, utterly magnificent. A great test of golf in breathtakingly beautiful surroundings.

However,
as JC-S points out (I think), Gleneagles Kings is utterly MAGICAL and is a MUST-PLAY for any GCAer visiting Scotland. I'd definitely say it would contribute FAR more to a GCA education than LL would.

Then again, if you could ever manage to do both on the same trip, you would certainly gain an unequalled appreciation for the whole spectrum, if not even the gamut indeed, of the gowf available in Scotland.

cheers,
FBD.