[Matt_Ward]

Mark C:

If you have never been on the property at TCC -- it would be well worth your time to see the holes in question.

If you have been and still feel otherwise -- I disagree with your take.

TCC does have issues with certain holes being weak or nondescript. Guess what. Ridgewood is far from bulletproof either IMHO.

No doubt the very nature of composite courses will cause much discussion -- some of it positive and some of it less so.

The long holes at TCC are more than a match for any found at Ridgewood plus the overall terrain found at TCC is much more compelling from a visual and architectural standpoint.

Mark -- what's amazing is that your original post contained reference to other courses (e.g. Forsgate, BCC and Somerset Hills) and people have only opined on the elements tied to Ridgewood.

[Bill Brightly]

Ridgewood's three nines are amazingly well-balanced. I get to play there 3 or 4 times a year and still haven't been able to rank them in my mind!

The course is almost always in superb condition and the par 5's are excellent, 8 West is one of the best I have ever played.

9 west would be a great hole except that the driving range, probably added after Tilly was done, creates an OB on the left and the tee points you there. The par 4's are also excellent, so I guess the par 3's come last. They are fine holes, but not as memorable as the best 4's and 5's.

The composite routing used for the PGA was incredibly good, picking up all the best holes on the property, but I wonder how the architect would react to that?

I love Somerset Hills, but I have to give RW the nod due to the routing. I think RW's property is more cohesive. Forsgate is a fun course, a great example of Banks' work, but it is not at RW's level.

[AndrewB]

9 west would be a great hole except that the driving range, probably added after Tilly was done, creates an OB on the left and the tee points you there.

Tillinghast actually designed the practice facility at Ridgewood.  It's on the Tillinghast site plan.  The Course Beautiful has a chapter about this entitled A Practical Practice Ground where he calls the design of the practice facility "The Ridgewood" since that's where he first designed it.  The chapter shows the site plan and a closeup of the practice area.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Second of all, you know how those New Yorkers and North Jersey New York wannabees are.  They overstate and overblow everything about their turf and understate everywhere else, particularly Philadelphia.  Surely after breathing in all those refinery fumes for so many years that those guys are more than a bit loopy.  Exhibit A is Pat Mucci.

I've never been to Ridgewood, but I'll bet under closer inspection, it would not outshine our beloved Huntingdon Valley A,B and C nines.  Tom admits he doesn't have a vivid recollection of Ridgewood and hasn't seen all 27 holes at HVCC.  So let's toss out his opinion for now.  That just leaves a couple of homers-- sorry Andrew and a paid hack--sorry Justin   So we can throw their sentiments out as well.  You know what that means...HVCC in a first round knock out.  Take that Tillie  

Wayne-

  Ridgewood and HV are both very, very good to great.  I seem to recall Ridgewood had a 'bigger' feel than HV on some of the holes.  Knowing your experience and opinion with Bethpage Black, understand that RCC is a lot different-the greens are a lot more contoured, bunkering is much different-maybe closer to WF.  I have not seen Fenway to make a comparison there.  The terrain is different as well; at RCC, the holes work back and forth over more hilly terrain than BP.  RCC doesn't feature the sandy waste areas found on BP, for example.  I think you would like it.  

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I know what you're saying about the composite course at TCC but I don't think I'd describe it as gimmicky or architectural chicanery of some type simply because some holes might be weak on the regular 18. I think the composite setup actually shows some pretty interesting architectural flexibility. Probably the primary reason for the composite is the logistical problems inherent in major tournaments and the fact that the practice range is not adequate for a major tournament without borrowing one of the existing holes (#9) for the occasion. The only thing I really don't like much about the composite is how the players have to walk from the preceding green right past the short par 3 to the next tee.

The architectural evolution of TCC from the very beginnings of the club and including Flynn's work there was one of the most complex architectural evolutions Wayne and I ever got involved in.

[Mark_Fine]

I find it amusing that for a group that supposedly doesn't like rankings, so many threads offen come down to "my dog is better than your dog"    Just go through some of the recent threads and see how many include some kind of list and/or comparison.  Is it any wonder the magazines are so focued on ranking things    Maybe GD should create a list of the Top 50 facilities with 27 holes.  I'll pass on the idea and tell them I got it from Golf Club Atlas  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Mark Fine,

I've always objected to ranking a composite course, one that's rarely played.

TEPaul,

You can't ignore that the 2nd hole, a par 4 is converted to a par 3, that the 9th and 10th holes are removed along with the 12th hole, and then on a seperate nine, hole # 1, a par 4 is combined with the green on hole # 2, a par 3, to form a hybrid par 4, and then, the next hole, a par 5 is converted to a par 4.

That's gimmickie in anyone's book.

Ridgewood's par 5's don't have to be shortened to par 4's.
They're strong enough to hold their own as par 5's.

[AndrewB]

The thread was started by asking for comparisons so it's no surprise it ended up that way.  I realize most of what's been said has been in good fun, but I do think it's a shame the discussion has been pretty high level and we haven't discussed specific details of holes and what makes them good or bad.  There's been a few holes listed, but not much mentioned about each.

All I know about Huntingdon Valley comes from Ran's review (which I haven't read in a while), and I remember little of The Country Club from walking it during the Ryder Cup in '99, so I can't offer much help there.  I do know Ridgewood very well and that's why I asked people to cite which holes they find dull there.  I've played Ridgewood enough times that I've had an adventure on every hole, so they all seem exciting to me, though I'll (proudly) admit to being a homer for sure.  I was hoping to have someone explain why a hole is dull so I could try to explain why it's not, and we'd at least both learn something about another way to look at the hole.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Andrew,

  I think, at Ridgewood, just like at HVCC, placement is of importance.  You may agree.  I've only been there once, didn't light it up, but it was obvious that, in comparison, to say BPB, the player needed to place his drive in correct locations in order to approach the green.  A specific example would be 9 West--I recall, but may be mistaken, left side of the fairway was the better angle in.  I'm going to look at the aerial and refresh my memory-it's been 2 years-
but I feintly recall many of the holes were like that--right fairway on 1, left center on 2, etc.  These were several from the West nine.  I may be wrong.  

[mark chalfant]

Andrew , Mike and Doug et al
Thanks for your helpful posts


Andrew:
Re the par 3s, I really enjoy how #2 East requires for precision so early in the round. I also like the combo of the 220 yard# 6 East which is followed by the taxing 460 yd  #7 that winds up a hill with a brutal  elegance. I also admire the 210yd  #3 on West, how it turns up the difficulty after  the somewhat  generous openers  on West.

Actually I   impressed with the entire strech of West #2 through #5.   Would apprecaite others  impressions  on any of these. Comparisons of RCC to Forsgate and Tilly's masterful Five Farms would also be apppreciated

thanks !

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Mark,

Many dismiss # 6 west due to its length.

It's a wonderful hole, with a tiny well protected, sloped green, with disaster looming all around.

What often goes unpraised is the green on # 5 West.

It's one of the great greens in golf that just doesn't get the praise it deserves, probably because most focus on the unique and difficult nature of the play from tee to green.

[AndrewB]

Doug, I agree that placement of your drives within fairways is important at Ridgewood.  I didn't often think about it since just hitting the fairways is hard enough on many holes, but there are several good examples.  The one you cite, 9W, is interesting.  I prefer to come in from the right side so I don't have to carry the deep front left bunker.  I've usually got a long enough shot in that the option of one-hopping my ball onto the green is valuable for me (to allow me to take a club less and take long out of play).  I could see someone preferring to come in from the left, though, especially for a back left hole location.  There is a ridge that runs through the middle of the green that falls more sharply on the left than the right.  If one approaches the green from the left, they will be playing more into that slope and can likely use it to play away from the left side of the green and still get close to a hole cut on the left.  From the right side of the fairway it's hard to get yourself to play far enough left to take that slope since it requires flirting with the bunker.  Coming in from the left forces you to carry the bunker, but it also allows you to take a more conservative line and still get close to the hole (assuming your ball takes the slope).

One other complicating factor of coming in from the right are the trees down the right side of the hole.  There have been some removed, but if you come in from the far right side of the fairway you do have to be careful to not catch a tree if you are going at the right side of the green.

[AndrewB]

Mark, regarding holes two through five on West, there is a lot to appreciate.  The second green is one of my favorites and reclaimed portions of lost green at the back right and front left have added nice hole locations at the back and a false front at the front.  That's a green where hole location can dictate one's line off the tee: it's much better to come into the green from the right if the hole is on the right side, otherwise you have to take a very aggressive line to be on the correct side of the ridge.

A new tee on the fourth has made that hole quite a bit longer and brings the right fairway bunker back into play for me.  It also makes the carry over the moguls on the next shot long enough that it actually crosses one's mind now.

As Patrick said, the fifth green is wonderful.  I've actually heard a lot of praise for this green over the years and have never felt it was under-appreciated, at least by the membership.  There used to be a large tree short left of the green that blocked access to the left side of the green from anywhere left of the center of the fairway.  Its removal was a great source of controversy at the club, but ultimately it died on its own so nobody had a choice in the matter.  Some think the hole is improved now, others don't.  There certainly isn't as much of a need to keep your drive down the right side now, or the need to shape your second shot around the tree if you end up down the left, but getting your ball on the correct tier of the green is plenty difficult even without the tree.  The lack of the tree does bring back the option of challenging the cross-bunker that forces players to choose between a Driver down the left or a three wood (or less) down the right.

Patrick's description of six is a good one.  I always seem to be between clubs there and that makes it tougher than it needs to be for me.  The green is a very small target and it sits high enough that one should add almost a half-club, but that's easy to discount and come up short.  Over by more than a few feet is a very difficult recovery, so I often find myself picking the shorter iron, swinging harder than I should, and ending up in one of the bunkers short of the green.  And, you really don't want to be in the front left bunker if the hole is on the front of the green since the green slopes away and to the right.

While I'm talking about West, I've always felt that seven was a tough drive because of how narrow the fairway looks from the tee.  The rise then fall of the fairway makes it not uncommon to leave yourself with a blind or partially blind approach to the green if you don't get your drive out there pretty far.  On eight one really should try to favor the left side of the fairway off the tee to make the second shot easier, and last winter the tee was moved back and right a bit to make that a more realistic option (most never even tried).  I mentioned the second shot on nine in my previous post, but that really is a tough drive.  One can get away with a draw all day long out there until that hole.  The angle of the tee shot requires a fade (unless you can hit it a mile in the air) or one must lay back a bit so as to not run through the fairway left.  The hole is long enough to make laying back a bad play and, as someone who hits a natural draw, that is a tough hole to try to finish a round or match on.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill B:

You need to play Forsgate now. I don't know when you were there last but I'd be more than happy to weigh in from both courses in terms of overall hole quality, routing and shot values.

Andrew:

You said, "One can get away with a draw all day long out there until that hole" -- in reference to the 9th on the West Nine at RCC.

Truth be told -- I remember watching Jim Thorpe during the Sr. PGA hitting high draws over the trees and playing a short pitch shot into the target. In fact, he did this on the 72nd hole of the championship and narrowly missed a tying birdie putt on the hole.

No doubt it's not the best option in playing the hole.

One other thing -- the elimination of the tree to the left of the 5th on the West was a meag blessing. The hole was cheapened by such an intrusion IMHO and unnecessary.

One other thing -- often left unsaid at RCC is the unique practice putting green. It's on my personal short list of interesting examples of this type.

[AndrewB]

Truth be told -- I remember watching Jim Thorpe during the Sr. PGA hitting high draws over the trees and playing a short pitch shot into the target. In fact, he did this on the 72nd hole of the championship and narrowly missed a tying birdie putt on the hole.

Yes, I was there too and saw that.  That's why I added the "unless you can hit it a mile in the air" bit.  It used to be easier but with the trees having grown, the limbs extended farther out from the right, and the tees pushed back, it takes hitting the ball like Jim Thorpe to do it.

Maybe Greg Stebbins will see this and chime in again.  I know he has some pretty strong feelings about that tee shot.

One other thing -- often left unsaid at RCC is the unique practice putting green. It's on my personal short list of interesting examples of this type.

I was just reading the club history book yesterday and noticed a specific mention of the practice green, referring to it as the "lilliputian course".  It states that there were very few practice putting greens in the US at the time and the idea came from the son of the Club President who had seen one at Cruden Bay (though the book embarrassingly refers to Cruden Bay as being in England!).  For some reason it hadn't occurred to me just how neat a practice green it is until I read that piece.  I can tell you it's perfect for a game of stymies.  A lot of money has exchanged hands on that green and a lot of challenging and fun putts exist across the slopes there.

Interestingly, Tillinghast originally designed Center to finish with a par three right in front of the clubhouse (this hole was never built), which would put it on the area that the practice green occupies.  The membership felt it would be a weakness for any of the nines to finish with a par three and wanted them to be equal, so Tillinghast reworked the design by adding the eighth hole and modifying the ninth to be a par four.  That change would have left a lot of open space near the clubhouse, hence the suggestion for a large practice green.

If I had to guess, I'd say the original eighth played from close to the seventh green over to what ended up being the ninth green, across what's now the maintenance area.  The original ninth tee would then likely have been close to the current ninth green, playing to the green near the clubhouse.

[Mike Policano]

In Tillinghast's "Gleaninga from the Wayside" there is a copy of a Tillinghast ad proclaiming that he built "lilliput links" for private estates, hotel grounds and golf clubs.

The putting clock at Ridgewood also bears no relationship to the greens on the course. The slope and internal contours are pretty severe.

Matt,

Couple of things about 9 West and the 2001 Sr. PGA.

I was a green-side marshall for that hole (which served as 18) the first day of the tourney. They played in 3 somes. The first 3 some to all reach the green in regulation was the 19th group.

Golfer after golfer tried the right side, hit a tree, stayed in the rough and wound up in the left greenside bunker. It was almost like watching Groundhog Day.

They also played from the front of the member's tees, so 400-410.

The hole has since been lengthened to about 435.

Also, the range on the other side of trees on the left side is no longer OB.

Finally, the tee shot sets up perfectly for a lefty draw. Imagine that in a right handed world.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill B:

You need to play Forsgate now. I don't know when you were there last but I'd be more than happy to weigh in from both courses in terms of overall hole quality, routing and shot values.

Andrew:

You said, "One can get away with a draw all day long out there until that hole" -- in reference to the 9th on the West Nine at RCC.

Truth be told -- I remember watching Jim Thorpe during the Sr. PGA hitting high draws over the trees and playing a short pitch shot into the target. In fact, he did this on the 72nd hole of the championship and narrowly missed a tying birdie putt on the hole.

No doubt it's not the best option in playing the hole.

One other thing -- the elimination of the tree to the left of the 5th on the West was a meag blessing. The hole was cheapened by such an intrusion IMHO and unnecessary.

One other thing -- often left unsaid at RCC is the unique practice putting green. It's on my personal short list of interesting examples of this type.

Matt,

You are right, RW has a unique practice green. Too bad it is often "in play" from hooked tee balls from #1 West. My swing thought is: 'Bill, "you are a guest, don't kill someone on the green", so I play a faded 3 wood!!!

I have played Forsgate many times, but not in the past two years, not since I started hanging out on GCA. I'll get down there this year.  Forsgate's conditioning cant match RW's, can it? Ridgewoods greens are better in every way, IMO.

I hate comparing such diverse styles, Banks vs Tilly. I  like them both. But as a 4 handicap, life on the line and I have to break 80, I would pick RCC! I can play smart and keep my score under control at RCC, but at Forsgate, there are many shots you just have to squeeze your cheeks and hit it properly, or pay the price.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Mike P:

Couple of quick thoughts -- I'm not a big fan of the first two holes on the West Nine -- they are OK par-4's far less than what Tillie presents on other layouts he has designed in NJ.

No doubt the 9th on the West needs to be played with a fade by right-handed players. Keep in mind this -- the turning point for the 9th can be quite vexing for players not used to what occurs there.

I concur with what you said -- players pushing shots to the right can make a guaranteed reservation into the deep front left bunker. I can remember Jerry Pate getting up'n down from that bunker in his morning 18 against John Grace during the '74 US Amateur.

In fact -- the '74 US Amateur, IMHO, was the best of the events I can remember the club hosting in recent times -- the quality of the field and the overall star power was quite impressive. A tad better than what the '90 Senior Open provided although having the Merry Mex vanquish Nicklaus was when the Senior Tour was at its best. Hats off to the club in being the first Senior Open site after the Bear became eligible.

Bill B:

When you say RCC has better overall greens - maybe in day-to-day pace but not in terms of overall contours and subsections which Banks artfully created.

Let me also point out that the collective par-3 holes at the Banks Course exceed any nine you want to put together from RCC.  

On the par-4 front I see Forsgate having the greater diversity of holes with less pedestrian ones thrown into the picture. The par-5 side I concede to Ridgewood but I will say the 8th at Forsgate is the best par-5 hole when matched against any other you can name at RCC.

Also, the last three holes on the Banks Course are more than a match for any finishing three on any of the three nines at RCC. The 16th's green is simply grand stuff -- the 17th at Forsgate is a demanding long par-3 and the 18th has been sufficiently lengthened to keep players from reaching the botton of the hill unless you nail a mega tee shot.

I see the Banks layout being ahead of RCC in the same fashion as Affirmed over Alydar - by a nose. I don't doubt RCC may be more difficult course but I see the richness of architectural details more alive at Forsgate.

[Greg Stebbins]

OK Andrew, I'll take the bait.

I do have some strong feelings about the 9 west tee shot at Ridgewood.  

The hole is now 470 yards from the new the back tee.  The hole doglegs to the right while the fairway slopes to the left.  Complicating matters is a wall of trees that hangs over the right side of the fairway.  These trees, which were probably planted in the 40's or 50's completely change the strategy of the hole.  Without the trees, the tee shot plays like a cape with an aggressive line down the right side resulting in a much better angle into the green.

With the trees as they sit today, the only option is to play a very hard fade around them, and even then it is nearly impossible to place the ball in the right side of the fairway as the 3rd and 4th trees really hang over the fairway like an umbrella.  The only way to find the right side of the fairway these days is to hit it though the trees and hope that the ball has eyes.

A mirror image of this scenario occurs on 7 east.  To me, it is a shame that the two strongest, and potentially the best holes on the property are compromised by uncontrolled tree growth.  

Other holes where tree growth has choked off intended lines of play include 1, 2, and 8 west; 3 and 9 center; and 1 and 9 east.  In my opinion, until the intended lines of play are restored and new tees are added to lengthen some of the multitude of 390 - 410 yard par 4's, the course will remain in the second tier of the Met Area classics.  

This should not be the case as the course as designed is unique, has great strategic options, and many world class greens.  That being said, the club has done some wonderful things over the past few years to restore the shapes of the bunkers and size of the greens.  A lot of trees have been removed, but it amounts to a good start for now.  

[JSlonis]

Greg,
 
Very well stated.  Since my first visit there, I've always held Ridgewood in high regard. With one of my best friends growing up as a member of the club, I've been fortunate enough to play there many times. There is no doubt as to the quality of the golf course, but like many other great classic courses that we talk about, the ingrowth of trees has compromised some of the strategy.

Until recently, it seemed as if the tee shot on #1 West needed to be hit through a tunnel.

It's nice to hear that the club is addressing this issue, it will only be a benefit.

[Matt_Ward]

I'd be very much interested in the precise tip and middle tee length for all the holes at RCC be posted. Having the 9th on the West extended to 470 yards is a major addition, to cite just one example.

No doubt the recent tree removal process has helped -- I do concur that the former situaton with the 1st on the West was too confining with all the timber on both sides.

I'm also interested for those who have played the course to see what they would list as the best hole on each of the three nines?

[AndrewB]

I'm not sure how recent the card these yardages are from is, but it lists 9W at 470 so it's fairly recent.

Hole, Black, Blue, White
1W, 380, 359, 339
2W, 393, 363, 345
3W, 209, 181, 146
4W, 555, 536, 464
5W, 412, 402, 402
6W, 155, 135, 120
7W, 422, 379, 364
8W, 577, 564, 519
9W, 470, 423, 377
West, 3573, 3342, 3076

1E, 380, 348, 321
2E, 176, 154, 136
3E, 572, 546, 508
4E, 444, 408, 382
5E, 407, 371, 357
6E, 229, 204, 187
7E, 467, 430, 420
8E, 411, 396, 347
9E, 381, 370, 347
East, 3467, 3227, 3005

1C, 388, 356, 337
2C, 568, 556, 475
3C, 462, 441, 428
4C, 536, 510, 488
5C, 213, 191, 177
6C, 291, 275, 259
7C, 398, 388, 377
8C, 148, 125, 125
9C, 385, 377, 352
Center, 3389, 3219, 3018

[AndrewB]

I'm also interested for those who have played the course to see what they would list as the best hole on each of the three nines?

I'd probably pick 5E, 6C, and 8W.

I love the green on 5E, especially since they reclaimed so much lost green at the back right.  The little bowl back there is a really fun spot for a hole location, with choices on the approach of going right at it or trying to feed it in off the right.  They've pushed the fairway bunkers down a fair bit so they're now in play off the tee.

6C is quite an intimidating approach shot because of how narrow the green is, but from as close as you are the really important thing is distance control.  The tee shot seems easy because you only have to hit it up there about 200 yards or so, but if you don't put it in the fairway then you'll have a tough lie and a poor angle to a very narrow green.  If you miss the green, or end up on the wrong place on the green, great skill is required to make four.  Even if you hit it close, it's a tough green to make a putt on.  I think the most frustrating thing you can do on the entire course is miss a half-wedge short and right of the green: it feels like you turn a potential three into a near-certain five.

8W is a good example of a par five where each shot depends on the previous one.  Take a chance by going down the left off the tee and you have a clear, straight-away shot for your second.  Take the safer route down the right-center right and you have to either lay short of the bunker or cut it around the trees.  There are quite a few options as to where to approach the green from too.  Short or even with the bunker and you'll have a level lie, but a long shot (for a third into a par five).  Past the bunker up the right and you have a view of the green but a sidehill lie.  Past the bunker down the left and you have a level stance but an uphill shot to the green, much more over the deep greenside bunker.

[Matt_Ward]

If memory serves -- the '01 Sr. PGA played at just over 6,900 yards with the 9th hole on the West listed on the official scorecard as 427 yards. It featured holes from all three nines.

The 1990 Sr. Open was just under 6,700 yards and was played exclusively on the Center-West Nines.

The '74 US Amateur was played exclusively on the East-West nines. I believe total yardage was in the area of 6,900 yards.

In the 1990 Sr. Open, the most difficult holes were 3 Center, 5 West and 9 West. In the US AM - 7 East was the one with the highest stroke average.

If memory serves -- the top six holes in difficulty for the '01 Sr. PGA as it was routed were ... the 9th, 14th, 3rd, 7th, 18th and 8th holes.

What's hard for me to conceive is the practicality / logistics for Ridgewood to host anything more than a Senior or Ladies event. With the existing pratice range used for corporate tents the practice range has always been the fairway area for 1 east. Getting in and around Midland Avenue is also not easy -- and having Rte 17 so near with all the day-to-day activity going on would make things very cramped.

Since the malls must be closed in Sundays in Paramus I guess it might be possible to use a composite / longer course for such an event if the club were indeed interested in hosting.

[AndrewB]

If memory serves -- the top six holes in difficulty for the '01 Sr. PGA as it was routed were ... the 9th, 14th, 3rd, 7th, 18th and 8th holes.

9 == 7E
14 == 5W
3 == 3C
7 == 5E
18 == 9W
8 == 6E

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