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Sean_A

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Re:Woking
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2009, 04:34:28 AM »
I loved Woking when I played it in September. They have undertaken a hefty program of shrub clearing from under the trees and reinstatement of the heather, especially around the bunkers. Neither of these projects is yet complete. Those bunkers to the right of 6 are still a work in progress.

I don't agree with the rerouting that Sean suggests although 14 is definitely the natural round closer. Tom suggesting that slow play would become an issue starting with a short par-5 and par-3 can't hold any sway though as the current routing starts with a driveable par-4 followed by a par-3... Anyway, the club holds a 2-ball only policy specifically to avoid slow play.

As for the bunker on 3, when I played there, that bunker had rough cut to the right of it where it seemed blindingly obvious that it should have been cut as fairway thus creating a natural kick-in off the bank.

I also don't agree with Sean that the front-9 is considerably better than the back. If I had to choose one or other, I'd go for the back because for me it provides the more interesting approach shots and green complexes. There are some really original wild undulations on 12, 13, 15 and 18 greens and I particularly liked the approaches to 11, 12, 13, 14 and 17.

Sean, I wonder if you would be in agreement with me that they could fill in all 3 greenside bunkers on 12 (making the entire hole bunkerless) and the hole would perhaps be even better than it is now? - a great natural green site.

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts. I adored Woking. It is a course I think of often.

Ally

I have thunk on it for a year now and I think you are right with one exception.  There is a bit of a funnel on the green running down to one of the bunkers (the centre one?).  I would keep this bunker for the odd loose putt if only for story telling fodder. 

I have also thought about starting on #15 some more and for all the reasons you cite, I like the idea!  Most of all, these are two good 3 shotters, but they seem a bit of a slog back to back - its tough to pull off the back to back 3 shotter successfully.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 05:48:53 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Woking
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2009, 06:15:49 AM »
I loved Woking when I played it in September. They have undertaken a hefty program of shrub clearing from under the trees and reinstatement of the heather, especially around the bunkers. Neither of these projects is yet complete. Those bunkers to the right of 6 are still a work in progress.

I don't agree with the rerouting that Sean suggests although 14 is definitely the natural round closer. Tom suggesting that slow play would become an issue starting with a short par-5 and par-3 can't hold any sway though as the current routing starts with a driveable par-4 followed by a par-3... Anyway, the club holds a 2-ball only policy specifically to avoid slow play.

As for the bunker on 3, when I played there, that bunker had rough cut to the right of it where it seemed blindingly obvious that it should have been cut as fairway thus creating a natural kick-in off the bank.

I also don't agree with Sean that the front-9 is considerably better than the back. If I had to choose one or other, I'd go for the back because for me it provides the more interesting approach shots and green complexes. There are some really original wild undulations on 12, 13, 15 and 18 greens and I particularly liked the approaches to 11, 12, 13, 14 and 17.

Sean, I wonder if you would be in agreement with me that they could fill in all 3 greenside bunkers on 12 (making the entire hole bunkerless) and the hole would perhaps be even better than it is now? - a great natural green site.

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts. I adored Woking. It is a course I think of often.

Ally

I have thunk on it for a year now and I think you are right with on exception.  There is a bit of a funnel on the green running down to one of the bunkers (the centre one?).  I would keep this bunker for the odd loose putt if only for story telling fodder. 

I have also thought about starting on #15 some more and for all the reasons you cite, I like the idea!  Most of all, these are two good 3 shotters, but they seem a bit of a slog back to back - its tough to pull off the back to back 3 shotter successfully.

Ciao

We don't need to get rid of all three bunkers I guess Sean... Just the one on the left  - it would allow a running shot to feed round.

There are a few reasons that I wouldn't start on 15... Firstly, the flow... Finishing up on 18 (the proposed 4th) and having to walk right round in front of the clubhouse to play the 5th... (Is there a better 1st tee in golf?... Maybe Lahinch)... I also like the idea of feeling back near the clubhouse after 14 (for matchplay or even a short evening round)... Although it's a toss-up really - I'd have to concede that 12,13,14 would make three great finishing holes...

I'm with you on the 9th as one of my least favourite holes... people are talking about the approach and it looks good on photos but I just think it's the detail of the hole that lets it down... It feels much less Heathland in character, the Green may be placed well but the actual Green Complex is a bit of a letdown and I agree with you that there are few options to the way you play the hole (although I do quite like the reverse camber fairway)... I'm not going on much experience here though - will be back in May to have a further look...

The changes to 6 look very good... Along with the new back tee (11 tee could play as a back tee for 6 here... wonder if that has been considered?) and the reshaped bunkers, this will be one of the strongest on the course...

I do love Woking...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING in Winter
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2009, 06:07:16 AM »
Woking is never far from thoughts when my thoughts are about golf.  I came across a few ditties today that I was hoping someone may help me with.  While casually reading a few old books this am I was stunned to discover the following:

1. There used to be heather between the creek and the green on #6. 

2. There used to be a bunker in the green on #7. 

3. #17 used to have more than one bunker "eating into the green". 

Does anyone have photos/info of these Woking Wonders?

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 06:44:23 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING in Winter
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2009, 07:39:34 AM »
...
Ciao
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 10:48:50 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING in Winter
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2009, 08:57:46 AM »
Sean -

I had forgotten how good this old thread was. I have some info on a couple of your questions.

- People at Woking told me last spring that there was once a bunker "in" the 11th green that was removed sometime after WWII. (Is it possible that George Thomas was familiar with Woking?) I don't have any information on the 7th.

- As for 17, Low's own account is that he removed an old Tom Dunn cop bunker well short of the green and dug two new "pits" (Darwin's word), putting one on the left side of the landing area and the other directly into the right side of the green platfrom. Both caused a big stir. Low has a wonderful passage about member complaints in Concerning Golf. As you note, MacK. described the greenside bunker as "eating into" the green. I believe both were nicknamed the "Johnny Low" bunkers at the time. Along with the c/l bunkers at the 4th and a couple of other "pits" eating into greens as at the 2nd and the 3rd, there was a lot of controversial stuff going on at Woking circa 1902.

Bob
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 09:00:54 AM by BCrosby »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING in Winter
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2009, 09:14:35 AM »
Sean -

I had forgotten how good this old thread was. I have some info on a couple of your questions.

- People at Woking told me last spring that there was once a bunker "in" the 11th green that was removed sometime after WWII. (Is it possible that George Thomas was familiar with Woking?) I don't have any information on the 7th.

- As for 17, Low's own account is that he removed an old Tom Dunn cop bunker well short of the green and dug two new "pits" (Darwin's word), putting one on the left side of the landing area and the other directly into the right side of the green platfrom. Both caused a big stir. Low has a wonderful passage about member complaints in Concerning Golf. As you note, MacK. described the greenside bunker as "eating into" the green. I believe both were nicknamed the "Johnny Low" bunkers at the time. Along with the c/l bunkers at the 4th and a couple of other "pits" eating into greens as at the 2nd and the 3rd, there was a lot of controversial stuff going on at Woking circa 1902.

Bob

Bob

That is interesting what you say about the 11th having an interior green bunker.  It would then seem strange to have two greens with interior bunkers.  I wish I could recall where I read Woking had an interior green bunker on #11.  I don't know the history of the routing very well, but I don't think #s 1-7 have changed. 

Given that the 17th runs away from the fairway perhaps a crossing bunker well short of the green was a mistake to remove - in any case it sounds much more imaginative than flanking bunkers. 

What did you think of Woking?

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING: 2011/12 Winter Tour
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2011, 04:48:10 PM »
Finally made it back to Woking!  While I am still hugely impressed with the course, I must say a few things were bothersome.  First and foremost, the temporary 16th green.  While most of the course drains fairly well, the 16th suffers.  There has not been much rain so this must be a chronic issue which the club should properly address - even if it means rebuilding the green. 2nd, I think the work on #6 doesn't go nearly far enough.  The green should be extended down to the water, front left.  I was hoping this would be done and was greatly disappointed to see bunker work as the main work done.  Finally, like #6, #12 green needs to be extended front left to bring the bunkers properly in play.  Its strange to see a large apron there rather than putting surface.  I also dislike the trees down the right leading to the green.  For sure my wish list is rather expensive, but its details like this which make an old-fashion course like Woking special.  

Enough of the rabble talk!  I still really like the course a ton so check out the updated pix!

Previous Stops on The Tour:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html  Huntercombe

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50427.0.html  Berkhamsted

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46538.0.html  Coxmoor

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.0.html  Temple

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html  Little Aston

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html  Beau Desert

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html  Notts

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50088.0.html  The Old Course

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50086.0.html  The New Course

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50078.0.html  The Castle Course

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html  Kington

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37526.0.html   Harborne

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.0.html   Worcester G&CC

Next Scheduled Stop - Saunton East & West.

Ciao


« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 06:17:45 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING: 2011/12 Winter Tour
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2011, 08:39:46 AM »
I had forgotten this thread. Great to revisit. I must get back to Woking.

Bob

Paul Nash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING: 2011/12 Winter Tour
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2011, 03:19:45 PM »
Great day Sean - looking forward to next year already - feel a pull towards Worplesdon!

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING: 2011/12 Winter Tour
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2012, 03:43:21 AM »
Sean,

Thanks for organising the trip to Woking last week. I took a bunch of photos but as you’ve done a pretty good tour already, I’ll just add a few here:

The view from the entrance road is across the small lake which forms a hazard to the right of the final green.


I actually quite liked the first hole, short enough to have a go at the green if you think you are up to it with your first shot of the day, but you must take on a couple of bunkers just off the direct line to the green. We had quite a wind the day we played  ::) but I imagine a 4 or 5 iron off the tee usually would do the trick, and its certainly a big enough target.


But then the short pitch is to a small green that all slopes away and with a big drop off behind, certainly isn’t easy. Seen here from the right hand side.


The 4th through to the 7th or 8th sits in a pretty flat area, bounded in on one side by the tall railway embankment and the ridge that runs from the 2nd hole round to the 9th on the other side. This whole area, though containing some very good golf, did feel a bit dull to me, with the setting feeling more parkland than heathland for some reason. However, to get around this dull nature there is certainly some interesting architectural features and it starts with the 4th hole that Sean describes so well in the opening post.

Here is the drive, with the option of going right or left of the central fairway bunkers. From the forward tees used in winter, flying those central bunkers is also an option and the right hand route doesn’t look as narrow from here


If you have a go at carrying the central bunker you will find its actually a bit of a Principals Nose, with another hidden behind


If you’ve gone on the safer left line, this is your view. The bunker is really in play and everything slopes away from you


Or from the braver right hand line, a simple pitch to the green


And finally a view from behind. What you cant see from these photos are a couple of sneaky bunkers right of the green between the green and OOB fence.


Here is the drive on the ninth. From this forward tee, you cant hit a long straight drive, and will either need to hit a big draw, or fly the pine trees to the left. You can just see the fairway climbing steeply to the left through the trees.


The view from behind the green shows how uphill the shot is and also the extent of the dogleg


Many of the greens, have some really cool internal contours. 12 and 13 are two of the better examples. Here is the 12th from just past those cross bunkers


Here is the 13th from behind (not sure if it shows the valley through the green as good as Ran’s old photo?) You can see the mound that’s short left of the approach quite obviously here.


I didn’t mind the back to back par 5s. The 15th has a large area of heather mounds to be avoided on the left of your layup

16th is a picturesque par 3 but the area around the green really doesn’t feel heathland like under foot and the soft rather than springy nature of the turf probably explains why it was a temporary green the day we played?

18 is a great short par 4 to finish. Its not clear on the tee how much the lake can come into play if you are just a little too long and right, but the right hand side probably gives an easier pitch to another excellently sloped green


Thanks again Sean! I’ve managed in the past few years to get to see quite a few of the London heathland courses, though I’d still really like to get to St Georges Hill and the two Sunningdale courses. Maybe this year at some point?

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING: 2011/12 Winter Tour
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2012, 08:07:25 AM »
James -

Good job with the photos. I agree with you about the 1st. 1. A wonderful starting hole. It is also a great half par hole that presents a number of interesting playing choices. Perhaps all that comes too early in the round for some?

Bob

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING: 2011/12 Winter Tour
« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2012, 08:21:55 AM »
Good job with the photos. I agree with you about the 1st. 1. A wonderful starting hole. It is also a great half par hole that presents a number of interesting playing choices. Perhaps all that comes too early in the round for some?

Perfect start to a match play round.

Nice pics, James.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING: 2011/12 Winter Tour
« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2015, 05:15:25 PM »
I had forgotten this thread. Great to revisit. I must get back to Woking.

Bob

Bob

Your Get The Low Down piece reminded me of this thread.  No updates, but jeepers, Woking may be the "perfect" design.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING GC
« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2015, 10:53:06 AM »
Well, now there is an update.  It was interesting to see the course hard on the heels of a few gooduns in the US...Woking is every bit of their calibre.


I am not sure about the 16th...likely a bit too severe given the size of the green. I see there are issues with maintaining a knob in the green...There are some tree issues as well, nothing terribly serious, but worth tackling if woking wants to keep progressing the improvements.  Anyway, see the updated tour on page 1...its always a treat to play Woking.


Ciao
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 08:33:41 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING GC
« Reply #64 on: November 22, 2016, 07:43:54 PM »
I thought folks would like to know that Woking is tackling the issue of their wet greens.  I think 7 greens had drainage work already this fall and perhaps one more will get the treatment.  I suspect that next year the other holes will be tackled.  As wet greens was my number one gripe about Woking...this is good news.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING GC
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2016, 03:25:27 AM »
Good to hear Sean,


do you know what exact work they are doing to tackle this problem?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING GC
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2016, 03:57:09 AM »
Good to hear Sean,


do you know what exact work they are doing to tackle this problem?


I am not certain, but I think new underground pipes and probably a bit of a different subsoil mix. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING GC
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2016, 05:12:35 AM »
Thanks for the reply Sean. So they are improving the drainage on the existing greens not doing a rebuild of the greens. Nice to see a bigger club keeping their greens intact for once.


Jon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING GC
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2016, 05:16:03 AM »
Thanks for the reply Sean. So they are improving the drainage on the existing greens not doing a rebuild of the greens. Nice to see a bigger club keeping their greens intact for once.


Jon


Si...no changes to contours or size...simply trying to improve drainage.  I wonder if the drainage performance of the new green (16) spurred the club to get off their back pockets? 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING GC
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2016, 05:28:12 AM »
I knew you'd be happy about this Sean!

It has been in the pipeline, no pun intended...well slightly, for quite a while as like most clubs they know the course doesn't drain as well as they would like.  They've looked into fairway drainage in a number of areas too but unfortunately cost has probably been prohibitive at times as it is at most places. I think the last few years took them to breaking point and with West Hill's greens almost failing the other year they decided to bite the bullet.

Interestingly the new 16th green was built without a gravel carpet as far as I can remember, just piped drainage in the subsoil and rootzone on top.

The new drainage installed on the other greens is just primary piped drainage.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING GC
« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2016, 05:35:58 AM »
I knew you'd be happy about this Sean!


Music to me ears!


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING GC
« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2016, 07:05:24 AM »
Tom,


it would seem to me to be the smart thing that they have done in not installing a gravel layer because to have done that would have altered the playing character of the sward so much as to have made the green completely different when compared to the rest of the courses greens.


As for the fairway drainage it can be expensive if you are going for a modern style system where the drains are only put in at a depth of 18" to 24" inches thus requiring smaller distances between the drains and regular cleaning to prevent silting up. However these systems are designed to be not only expensive but also to fail as no one cleans their drains.


Much better is to put in fewer drains at a greater depth ideally 60" to 72". Much cheaper, very effective and they have a much longer life span.


Jon

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING GC
« Reply #72 on: November 23, 2016, 07:36:11 AM »
Jon is correct in his hypothesis that the green was done that way to match the others. Course manager Jon Day grew the turf used on the new 16th in his turf nursery from cores taken from the existing greens too, so that the grass mix would be the same as the old greens too.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING GC
« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2016, 12:30:32 PM »
Tom,


it would seem to me to be the smart thing that they have done in not installing a gravel layer because to have done that would have altered the playing character of the sward so much as to have made the green completely different when compared to the rest of the courses greens.


As for the fairway drainage it can be expensive if you are going for a modern style system where the drains are only put in at a depth of 18" to 24" inches thus requiring smaller distances between the drains and regular cleaning to prevent silting up. However these systems are designed to be not only expensive but also to fail as no one cleans their drains.


Much better is to put in fewer drains at a greater depth ideally 60" to 72". Much cheaper, very effective and they have a much longer life span.


Jon


Jon,


It depends vastly on whether you are tackling surface or ground water drainage conditions, topography, soil conditions, outfall options. The deeper drains you mention are great for ground water but if you are putting them at a bigger spacing you are asking the water to travel further across the surface to get to them so if the issue is the water getting to the ground in the first place they won't be as effective. It's horses for courses.


Adam,


We are seeing more and more courses go down the route of using cores to re-build greens and it has worked well.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wonderful WOKING GC
« Reply #74 on: November 23, 2016, 01:27:17 PM »
Tom,


I have heard this argument from others and it is fundamentally flawed. For it to be correct it would mean the soil profile is permanently saturated which is clearly not the case in most instances. If your profile is not saturated then all water has the same distance to travel down to get away from the surface. If you keep the deep profile drained this has a knock on effect of improving the drainage of the profile closer to the surface. Through regular aerating (slitting, tining, mole drainage,....) you make it possible for the surface area to drain quicker. Deep drains will have a big effect on improving the general drainage and should there be points that are locally wet these are easily picked up with a dedicated spur. Remember it is to solve a general drainage problem in the winter not flash flooding which is what blanket drainage is for.


Expensive blanket drainage has been developed for sports fields which are a flattish and small area which golf course are not. Yes it does work but it is certainly an expensive sledge hammer to take to this sort of nut.


Jon

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