[Tom Kelly]

Jon,


Much of what you say is true but I have a feeling we are going to have to agree to disagree on a few things and I don't want ruin a good thread so I'll try to be brief.


The soil profile doesn't have to be permanently saturated for water to run across the surface, you just need more water trying to get into the soil than the soil has capacity to move through it's profile at any one time. When it rains on most soil this happens.


What I refer to as 'surface drainage' isn't just water moving across the surface but the idea of trying to remove water from the surface as quickly as possible. Reducing the distance for water to travel to find the nearest drain is more effective at this than deeper drains. They are shallower (600mm minimum for fairways, 500mm min for greens is common) as at smaller spacing they don't need to be as deep to have the same effect that the deeper drains have on the overall water table and it saves abit of money. You get the effect of the deeper drains with added effect of removing the water quickly. Yes it is more expensive but there are added benefits. Deeper drains that then need to be added to in order to catch particular areas can end up costing as much if repeat work is required and awkward spurs and lines are needed.


But again it's 'horses for courses', every site is different.


The idea that they are "designed to fail" is pretty ridiculous. The stone will last just as long in a shallow drain as a deeper drain but as you clearly know all drainage is only as good as it's maintenance. If there is too much compaction and the water can't get to them that's when they will fail.


You probably know all of this but for those that don't this article is a good basic guide;


https://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/land-drainage-soil-water-and.html




Right back to Woking....

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,



What I refer to as 'surface drainage' isn't just water moving across the surface but the idea of trying to remove water from the surface as quickly as possible. Reducing the distance for water to travel to find the nearest drain is more effective at this than deeper drains. They are shallower (600mm minimum for fairways, 500mm min for greens is common) as at smaller spacing they don't need to be as deep to have the same effect that the deeper drains have on the overall water table and it saves abit of money. You get the effect of the deeper drains with added effect of removing the water quickly. Yes it is more expensive but there are added benefits. Deeper drains that then need to be added to in order to catch particular areas can end up costing as much if repeat work is required and awkward spurs and lines are needed.

Tom,


you are correct and we should not hi-jack this thread. I will keep it brief therefore and just point out that you contradict yourself which kind of sums up the position you are taking.


Nuff said me thinks.


Jon

[Tom Kelly]

Jon,



What I refer to as 'surface drainage' isn't just water moving across the surface but the idea of trying to remove water from the surface as quickly as possible. Reducing the distance for water to travel to find the nearest drain is more effective at this than deeper drains. They are shallower (600mm minimum for fairways, 500mm min for greens is common) as at smaller spacing they don't need to be as deep to have the same effect that the deeper drains have on the overall water table and it saves abit of money. You get the effect of the deeper drains with added effect of removing the water quickly. Yes it is more expensive but there are added benefits. Deeper drains that then need to be added to in order to catch particular areas can end up costing as much if repeat work is required and awkward spurs and lines are needed.

Tom,


you are correct and we should not hi-jack this thread. I will keep it brief therefore and just point out that you contradict yourself which kind of sums up the position you are taking.


Nuff said me thinks.


Jon

It saves money on having all the closer spaced drains being so deep.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,


nobody would put deep drains so close together. I certainly never suggested it but that you believe this baffles me somewhat.


Deep drainage drains the profile at a deeper depth to solve long term drainage problems. Any issues higher up are dealt with through slitting, tinning, mole drainage and dedicated spurs which maybe be installed at a shallower depth if prefered. Deep drainge allows the profile to absorb significantly more moisture before it becomes saturated in comparrison to shallow drainage.


Shallow drainage drains the top soil profile but the deeper profile remains saturated. My understanding is that Woking had their problems in the winter and so deep drains would better address this issue.




Jon

[Sean_A]

I had a chance to play Woking this past weekend.  I must say the 11 newly laid greens are working a treat.  There is a very noticeable difference in quality.  The club is currently working on the 15th green.  I think the plan is to complete the greens sometime early next year. 

However, I am still not convinced by the newish 16th. 

Since the club has the bit in their teeth I think now is time to attack the trees.  Trees don't really block play, but the loss of heather since I first started playing Woking is alarming. 

One might think that in its current state Woking is a has been.  Not so, this is clearly a great course now that the greens are allowed to shine.  I fully expect the course to go from strength strength from this year on.  See the updated tour.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32655.0.html

Ciao
 

[BCowan]

S,


What does 11 newly laid greens mean?  They Re grassed them with better variety? 

[Adam Lawrence]

Woking has a newish secretary, Richard Pennell, who is well known in this parish, and a brand new course manager, Andy Ewence, fresh from overseeing a major renovation at the Buckinghamshire course in Denham. Both very good people; the course and club are in safe hands.

[Sean_A]

S,


What does 11 newly laid greens mean?  They Re grassed them with better variety?

Ben

Drainage is the main reason for the work.  I don't know if there is also a different strain of grass.  It is impossible to tell from playing the course, but the greens seem to have the same contours as previously. I am also told that hand cutting greens is the new regime. 

Ciao

[Marc Haring]

That's a great updated tour Sean. I have played it just the once and would long to go back if funds will allow.

[Richard Pennell]

Sean - great to see you again, and I also had the pleasure of Tony Muldoon's presence last week! It was like old times!


The drainage work in the greens has retained the wonderful, existing contours (all via laser levels) and the existing turf. The contractor just lifts the turf in strips, installs the drainage, compacts the infill by hand and re-lays the turf. They have done a fantastic job! The club did 11 greens plus the putting green last winter; the remaining 6 (the new 16th was built with drainage) will be done by the end of August, enabling Andy and his team to show off this wonderful set of greens throughout the year.


Heather regeneration is a priority - the club are 2/5ths of the way through a 5 year plan to manage woodland and encourage heather - the results of the first 2 winters' work are already bearing fruit but plenty more to do.


Richard

I had a chance to play Woking this past weekend.  I must say the 11 newly laid greens are working a treat.  There is a very noticeable difference in quality.  The club is currently working on the 15th green.  I think the plan is to complete the greens sometime early next year. 

However, I am still not convinced by the newish 16th. 

Since the club has the bit in their teeth I think now is time to attack the trees.  Trees don't really block play, but the loss of heather since I first started playing Woking is alarming. 

One might think that in its current state Woking is a has been.  Not so, this is clearly a great course now that the greens are allowed to shine.  I fully expect the course to go from strength strength from this year on.  See the updated tour.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32655.0.html

Ciao

[Sean_A]

Richard

Yes, it was good to see you again as well.  I hadn't realized the greens would all be replaced by the end August.  Will it be one green at a time at rate of over one green per week?

Ciao

[Richard Pennell]

That's the plan, depending on the weather!

[Mike Feeney]

Bumping thread to highlight nicely produced video/film: The Story of Woking Golf Club https://cookiejargolf.com/story-of-a-golf-club-woking-golf-club/

[Sean_A]

Bumping thread to highlight nicely produced video/film: The Story of Woking Golf Club https://cookiejargolf.com/story-of-a-golf-club-woking-golf-club/

Thanks Mike.

Ciao

[BHoover]

Sean, how would you compare Woking to its two neighbors West Hill and Worplesdon?


I have not played Worplesdon, but I was fortunate to play both Woking and West Hill on a perfect day in September 2019. I had high expectations going into Woking and was not disappointed. I think Woking is the course I most want to play again. With respect to West Hill, I had no expectations because I didn’t know much about it. But I was absolutely blown away by the quality of the holes and the setting. I think it has some strengths over Woking, particularly the finishing hole.

[Sean_A]

West Hill is attractive and getting moreso with tree removal. Two aspects bother me. I don't like the use of water. Essentially the water cuts dead across fairways. Second, the second hole after the hut (14?) is dreadful.

No fault of West Hill, but Woking's greens are far more interesting.

For me Woking is top of the 3Ws. Small gap to Worpy. Larger gap to West Hill. Worpy is the course that loses out in the group because it is great and most folks don't get that.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

I agree with Sean's order but would just add that West Hill has for as long as I have known the courses (ten years or so) had the best stand of heather, which has made it especially attractive. In the last three years, under Richard Pennell of this parish, Woking has got very serious about tree removal and heather regeneration (they cleared a large area of trees between holes two and eleven last winter).

[BHoover]

I do think Woking has a superior set of greens. They are excellent.


I don’t recall thinking any holes at West Hill were poor. They were removing trees the day I was there and the views of the property were very good. While I preferred Woking, I did come away thinking West Hill was very fun. I would happily play either and never complain.

[Sean_A]

Its hard to imagine I started this tour almost 14 years ago. I was lucky enough to see Woking again a few weeks ago. The club has spent a fair amount of money to install green drainage. In addition to the drainage, practically every green has been enlarged, many bunkers have been reshaped, some short grass area around greens are new and more trees have been removed. The overall result is paying dividends with a firmer golf course.  If folks haven't been to Woking in a while, make the effort!

See the updated tour
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32655.0.html

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

I played at Woking today, with course manager Andy Ewence and consulting architect Tim Lobb. It was the first time I had been in perhaps four years, so I hadn't seen most of the work Sean references -- large scale tree removal, heather regeneration and green expansion.


It's a triumph, and the work that is starting this winter is going to make it more exciting still -- this is in competition with what is currently underway at Addington as the best news in British golf.


I'm going to write it up for January's GCA so can't share too much here. Suffice to say there's going to be a lot of shouts of 'TIMBER' at Woking this winter.

[Sean_A]

I played at Woking today, with course manager Andy Ewence and consulting architect Tim Lobb. It was the first time I had been in perhaps four years, so I hadn't seen most of the work Sean references -- large scale tree removal, heather regeneration and green expansion.

It's a triumph, and the work that is starting this winter is going to make it more exciting still -- this is in competition with what is currently underway at Addington as the best news in British golf.

I'm going to write it up for January's GCA so can't share too much here. Suffice to say there's going to be a lot of shouts of 'TIMBER' at Woking this winter.

Woking really is turning a few corners. Tell the club to turn another corner and expand 6 green out to the water.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

I played at Woking today, with course manager Andy Ewence and consulting architect Tim Lobb. It was the first time I had been in perhaps four years, so I hadn't seen most of the work Sean references -- large scale tree removal, heather regeneration and green expansion.

It's a triumph, and the work that is starting this winter is going to make it more exciting still -- this is in competition with what is currently underway at Addington as the best news in British golf.

I'm going to write it up for January's GCA so can't share too much here. Suffice to say there's going to be a lot of shouts of 'TIMBER' at Woking this winter.

Woking really is turning a few corners. Tell the club to turn another corner and expand 6 green out to the water.

Ciao

There has been a lot of green expansion -- I particularly noticed it at the rear of the fifth. The greens, always large, are huge now. The seventeenth has been expanded too, though we spent several minutes discussing just how much it would have to grow or move to make the famous 'Johnny Low' bunker the fearsome in-green hazard of which Low writes. The stream has been remodelled (again) and now sports heather on the green side bank. It looks good, imo, but it's not expanding the green to the water.

[Adam Lawrence]

The other news from Woking that will interest GCAers is that Richard Pennell, sometimes of this parish, has resigned his post at GM.

[Sean_A]

I played at Woking today, with course manager Andy Ewence and consulting architect Tim Lobb. It was the first time I had been in perhaps four years, so I hadn't seen most of the work Sean references -- large scale tree removal, heather regeneration and green expansion.

It's a triumph, and the work that is starting this winter is going to make it more exciting still -- this is in competition with what is currently underway at Addington as the best news in British golf.

I'm going to write it up for January's GCA so can't share too much here. Suffice to say there's going to be a lot of shouts of 'TIMBER' at Woking this winter.

Woking really is turning a few corners. Tell the club to turn another corner and expand 6 green out to the water.

Ciao

There has been a lot of green expansion -- I particularly noticed it at the rear of the fifth. The greens, always large, are huge now. The seventeenth has been expanded too, though we spent several minutes discussing just how much it would have to grow or move to make the famous 'Johnny Low' bunker the fearsome in-green hazard of which Low writes. The stream has been remodelled (again) and now sports heather on the green side bank. It looks good, imo, but it's not expanding the green to the water.

The loss of the original J Low bunker on 17 is lamentable. Wouldn't the green have to spread in front of 18 tee to make that scheme work properly? Was 18 always a dogleg right or was the tee to the left of 17 green at some point? And if it was, is it worth sacrificing the dogleg on 18 to restore 17 green?

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

I played at Woking today, with course manager Andy Ewence and consulting architect Tim Lobb. It was the first time I had been in perhaps four years, so I hadn't seen most of the work Sean references -- large scale tree removal, heather regeneration and green expansion.

It's a triumph, and the work that is starting this winter is going to make it more exciting still -- this is in competition with what is currently underway at Addington as the best news in British golf.

I'm going to write it up for January's GCA so can't share too much here. Suffice to say there's going to be a lot of shouts of 'TIMBER' at Woking this winter.

Woking really is turning a few corners. Tell the club to turn another corner and expand 6 green out to the water.

Ciao

There has been a lot of green expansion -- I particularly noticed it at the rear of the fifth. The greens, always large, are huge now. The seventeenth has been expanded too, though we spent several minutes discussing just how much it would have to grow or move to make the famous 'Johnny Low' bunker the fearsome in-green hazard of which Low writes. The stream has been remodelled (again) and now sports heather on the green side bank. It looks good, imo, but it's not expanding the green to the water.

The loss of the original J Low bunker on 17 is lamentable. Wouldn't the green have to spread in front of 18 tee to make that scheme work properly? Was 18 always a dogleg right or was the tee to the left of 17 green at some point? And if it was, is it worth sacrificing the dogleg on 18 to restore 17 green?

Ciao

The eighteenth tee used to be left of the green.


The problem with the seventeenth is that nobody knows exactly what it used to look like. I have spent hours and hours looking for a historic photo of the green and never found one.

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