[TEPaul]

"7)  As I recall, Wilson indicates he was greatly influenced by NGLA and Pine Valley; have you any verifiable evidence that he was influenced by any of these holes you list, and if so how? "


Just for the accuracy of the historical record with Hugh I. Wilson, I just don't like to see even the kind of distortion as the one above, at this point. I don't believe Hugh Wilson ever said he was influenced by Pine Valley or even NGLA for that matter. What he did say the only time I know of that he referred to NGLA or Pine Valley as far as either being an influence was this remark:

"May I suggest to any committee about to build a golf course, or to alter their old one, that they spend as much time as possible on courses such as the National and Pine Valley, where they may see the finest types of holes and, while they cannot hope to reproduce them in their entirety, they can learn the correct principles and adapt them to their own courses."

He was referring to architectural principles and he was making a suggestion to others, he was not exactly explaining what influenced him at Merion East or West. Hugh Wilson had already finished designing the first phase of Merion East and the West course almost before Pine Valley even began anyway. And secondly, he wrote that remark in 1916 when he and Flynn were about to launch into a fairly comprehensive second phase of the design of Merion East during which some of the holes that logically might have been suggestions or some influence from Macdonald were about to be redesigned or would be within less than a decade.

I do not believe any of that should be construed as some sort of disrespect or minimization of Macdonald in the context of Merion. It should merely be viewed in the context of what was done at Merion East in its rather remarkable app. 20 year evolutionary design phases.
 

[Peter Pallotta]

Often enough on these threads some insight or bit of information gets posted that strikes me so immediately as logical and sensible and intuitively correct that I feel better about not understanding many of the details. On another thread, Mike C wrote this:

"...From the perspective of those men, having played with and against Macdonald in competitions and such for a decade or so at that point, would have thought of him as an amateur sportsman first, and as an architect second, which is not how we think about him today"

And Tom paul wrote:

"It's not so much what kind of architect he was but more about what kind of man he was (an expert golf amateur/sportsman) and the way he was going about it (an amateur/sporstman architect with a committee of expert AMATEUR/SPORTSMEN golfers) which was definitely something of a first on the American golf and architecture scene!...Since some of them from Merion knew him well anyway, is it some coincidence that the men from Merion (a couple of committees of all amateur/sportsmen) were probably the very first to approach him?"

I'm not going to draw any conclusions or inferences. I'm just saying that in my opinion this makes perfect sense; it is BELIEVABLE.

Peter

[TEPaul]

Peter:

I believe you and I have talked about that some or touched on it and Mike Cirba and I have talked about it too, even as recently as last night.

I just think to truly understand what Merion was doing then, even what they were asking or expecting from Macdonald, wasn't just about the architecture, it was the way he was going about the thing and WHY!

To ever really understand it, we have to know so much more about this sort of ethos from that time they referred to as "amateur/sportsmanship". I think the reason we have to know so much more about it (that so-called "Amateur/sportsman" ETHOS) is because it meant so much more to them than it does to us today!! It most certainly did to MCC and I can prove that with written documentation from that time.

The danger today to even discuss it, in my opinion, is that we will look at them as elitists or in some other unattractive or unadmirable way. I so strongly feel it was not necessarily that way to them in their time.

It's sort of a "glass-half-empty/glass half-full" kind of thing---it's not exactly that they hated professionals or professionalism, it's just that they so gloried in this thing they called "amateur-sportsmanship" which meant you did it because you loved it so much that remuneration was not necessay or even a point to be considered. Having said that, I am certainly not saying that I'm oblivious to the fact most of these people were rich!

I just think they saw and felt some kind of shining ideal that way, the understanding of which has sort of been lost to us in the winds of time. If ever there was a proponent of the idea of the "amateur/sportsman" in golf and in architecture in America it was most definitely Charles Blair Macdonald, and if anyone on here or anyone doing any kind of research on him doesn't understand THAT, they will never be able to understand much about HIM or the things he did and believed in, in my opinion!

I don't know that we should recreate anything about that time and idea or even try to but the least we can do is try to understand what they felt and why they did some of the things that were done in that time---their time.

Charles Blair Macdonald was a big man to them, and I think in some bigger ways to them than just golf course architecture----he represented one of the best examples of that ideal, that ethos of "amateurism" and the old fashioned idea and ideal and spirit of "sportsmanship" (doing something just for the love of it)!

I just wish more people on here could try to understand that better because I think it's the primary reason they turned to him. I think their idea and perhaps their only idea was to just ask him how he did it, so they could do what he was doing. I don't think it was ever their idea to ask him or get him to do any of it for them!

[Mike_Cirba]

We all know the legend.

A young, fresh-face, inexperienced, novice Insurance Man member is inexplicably picked by the vaunted Merion Cricket Club to design their new course and creates a masterpiece.   

He makes a trip to the mountaintop to initially meet and visit with the sage CB Macdonald at National, absorbs the imparted wisdom, goes overseas to confirm that vision, and then voila!, alchemy ensues!

Seemingly coming out of nowhere to prominence, he creates a few more courses, but devotes his short life to the creation and modification of the Merion East course which he largely perfects before dying just after the 1924 US Amateur.   

It makes a great Walter Mitty-ish, everyman story and I thought it appropriate to update this thread because to date a lot of the early findings that were posted here in prior months have really fleshed out a much more accurate and detailed picture of Hugh Wilson to a much greater degree than had been understood prior.

However, what wasn't known, until today, is that Hugh Wilson of Philadelphia was a member of the Metropolitan Golf Association based out of New York City, and played golf against CB Macdonald and Devereux Emmett as far back as 1903.   

In 1901, the New York Times published the following article listing the top players in the section.   Look carefully...

[Mike_Cirba]

More interesting is this 1903 match, which pitted the very best players in Philadelphia against the very best from New York City.   

It clearly shows that Hugh Wilson, AW Tillinghast, and Howard Perrin all knew and competed against CB Macdonald, Dev Emmett, and other top names in the game a full seven years before Macdonald came to Merion to check on the new property they were considering.

These matches between Philly and NYC were apparently held twice a year, which would have certainly cemented both friendships as well as rivalries among the participants.

As a related aside, I was informed yesterday that Dr. Henry Toulmin, one of the five-member Merion Committee, laid out the first course for the Belmont Cricket Club in 1898, which shortly became known as Aronimink, a club whose first club champion was one Hugh Wilson .

[Joe Bausch]

As a related aside, I was informed yesterday that Dr. Henry Toulmin, one of the five-member Merion Committee, laid out the first course for the Belmont Cricket Club in 1898, which shortly became known as Aronimink, a club whose first club champion was one Hugh Wilson .

Mike, what is the source of Toulmin laying out Belmont?  This article from the May 4, 1896 issue of the Philadelphia Inquirer suggests Willie Campbell was involved, no?

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

A little birdie told me that he received an ancient, long-anticipated, much-valued book yesterday, circa 1900 and Toulmin was one of three men named as responsible for the layout. 

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

A little birdie told me that he received an ancient, long-anticipated, much-valued book yesterday, circa 1900 and Toulmin was one of three men named as responsible for the layout. 

Ah, yes, I heard about that birdie but he didn't say that much to me.  But I think the birdie will be more informative in the very near future.

[Mike_Cirba]

In prior discussions some of us have contended that Hugh Wilson was a very modest, humble man, who preferred to operate in the background without fanfare or bluster.

That modesty has been often mistaken here to make the case that Wilson knew very little about golf and golf courses.   As has been seen on this thread, Wilson was involved with green committees and course construction all the way back to his Princeton days.

In that regard, it was wonderful to read another contemporaneous account the Joe Bausch unearthed the other day that outlined the changes Wilson made at Merion for the 1924 US Amateur.   The most important parts are difficult to read, so I will type them here for easier viewing;

"Merion, always a fascinating and exacting golf course will be even more so for the 1924 United States amateur championship..."

"Merion has been improved upon.   The improvements have brought out more of the course's beauty.   That is not all."

"Changes judically conceived have made Merion, already a championship layout, into a much stiffer test..."

"Hugh I. Wilson, one of the best-known "turfologists" in these United States and an authority on golf architecture in propertion(sp?) is the man mainly responsible."

"He is chairman of the Greens Committee at Merion.  Hugh Wilson does not court attention for his knowledge.  He prefers to do things and allow his accomplishments to go unsung."

"Yet he is considerate.  He has the interest of golf at heart, especially the Merion course and the national amateur championship."

"Trying to keep himself in the background, he has explained what has been done at Merion."

"In making ready the bunkered battleground for the next national amateur grapple, the first thing considered was the elimination of three shots over a much-used highway."

"This has been done.   Four entirely new holes have been constructed.   Three of them supplant holes that required shots over Ardmore avenue...."

[Mark Bourgeois]

Merry Christmas, Mike.

I have two questions:
1) Are you sure it was your Hugh Wilson in those matches?  The body of the article refers to an "H.J. Wilson" and then the agate type has a reference to H.J. Wilson.  There's also a reference to H.I. Wilson in the agate.  Maybe it's just a typo, but have you found any info on or looked for an H.J. Wilson?
2) When Wilson played in the (Spring) May 1902 intercollegiate championship at Garden City, was Macdonald abroad?  Is there anything to suggest Macdonald may have attended that tournament?

Mark

PS McFarland apparently was a golfer of some note, losing in the finals of that Spring championship to Charles Hitchcock, part of one of the greatest dynasties in U.S. collegiate sports history.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Those matches you refer to were called the "Intercity Matches." They began in 1900 between the Metropolitan Golf Association (New York) and the Golf Association of Philadelphia (GAP) and for the men they were the precusor to what became known as the Lesley Cup Matches which have been going on now for 103 years. A few years later Massachussets was added and a few decades later Quebec.

The same thing occured as early (around 1901) with the ladies and their intercity matches have always been known as the "Griscom Cup" since about the turn of the century (given I believe by Rodman Griscom---eg of MCC noteriety, and on Wilson's Committee for the design and construction of Merion East).

Griscom's sister Eleanor won the 1900 US Amateur.

I've been saying on here for many years that these people we now talk about on here, many of whom became these so-called "amateur/sportsmen" architects, certainly got to know each other in the Lesley Cup Matches if they didn't already know each other through golf or for other reasons.

Wilson did play in a few Lesley Cup Matches I believe and perhaps in a few of those "Intercity Matches" that were the early precusor to the Lesley Cup Matches.

Of course Macdonald played in them too as did all the best amateurs of the era from all those regions.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

Merry Christmas!

In answer to your questions;

1) Yes that is definitely Hugh Wilson and when you blow up the article you can see that its not a J,,,its an I with a blotch of ink in front.   There was no HJ Wilson.

2) I don't know..I'll look into it.

Thanks!

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

You had asked if C.B. Macdonald was abroad during the Intercollegiate Matches at Garden City in 1902.

I don't believe so.   The reason I say that is the fact he played in matches that pitted the top universities against the top clubs just a few days prior at Garden City.

While Hugh Wilson and his Princeton team were playing and beating Richmond County CC, the powerful Yale team romped over Garden City, with Walter Travis being the only player to win significant points for the GCGC team as seen below;

[Mike_Cirba]

That match with Macdonald and Emmett present was April 27, 1902...

...on May 4th 1902 Garden City hosted their invitational tournament won by Walter Travis.

Among the high qualifiers for match play was one Hugh Wilson.   I'm assuming that Macdonald was probably still around, but his name is not listed as making it to match-play.

The following articles show 1) The results of the May 4th Garden City Invitational, and 2) The teams playing for the Intercollegiate Championship starting May 5th with some really interesting names such as H. Chandler Egan, as well as Cecil Calvert, who went on to assist in the design of an early course at Aronimink.

[Mike_Cirba]

I jusr spent the day walking and photographing Hugh Wilson's Seaview course and I'm planning to put together one of those pictorial hole by hole essays that have been so popular here of late.

The resort here makes a big deal of their supposed Ross heritage, but I walked the place today armed with the original routing map as well as hole by hole descriptions from the course opening in 1914 (Ross wasn't here til 2 years later when he was purportedly brought in to add some pits to toughen it) and for the life of me I can't figure out what Ross may have done because the holes and bunkering are pretty much exactly as described on opening day of Hugh Wilsons course.

The evidence is pretty dranatic although I doubt they'd ever recognize or admit it here, so invested are they in perpetuating their dubious Ross legacy;  they even have his name painted on the crown moulding!

[Kyle Harris]

I jusr spent the day walking and photographing Hugh Wilson's Seaview course and I'm planning to put together one of those pictorial hole by hole essays that have been so popular here of late.

The resort here makes a big deal of their supposed Ross heritage, but I walked the place today armed with the original routing map as well as hole by hole descriptions from the course opening in 1914 (Ross wasn't here til 2 years later when he was purportedly brought in to add some pits to toughen it) and for the life of me I can't figure out what Ross may have done because the holes and bunkering are pretty much exactly as described on opening day of Hugh Wilsons course.

The evidence is pretty dranatic although I doubt they'd ever recognize or admit it here, so invested are they in perpetuating their dubious Ross legacy;  they even have his name painted on the crown moulding!

So, what did they do? Hire Ross to draw those hole diagrams in the locker room?

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

Yes, pretty much.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Yes, pretty much.

Come on, there has to be more than that. There HAS to be reason for Ross to go to that effort.

Mind posting the routing and Wilson information you have when you get the chance?

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

You'll see details this week but for now let me just say that Wilson's routing remains unchanged, the hole lengths are the same, and all of the major bunkers, features, and preferred strategies described for opening day remain intact.

Even the original geen features described remain untouched, even if a few have shrunk.

Other than perhaps possibly adding some bunkers here and there I really don't know what Ross did.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

You'll see details this week but for now let me just say that Wilson's routing remains unchanged, the hole lengths are the same, and all of the major bunkers, features, and preferred strategies described for opening day remain intact.

Even the original geen features described remain untouched, even if a few have shrunk.

Other than perhaps possibly adding some bunkers here and there I really don't know what Ross did.

Reasonable speculation that maybe bunkers were rebuilt or deepened with some other engineering considerations? I don't remember, but do the diagrams in the locker room have notes?

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle

I'll shoot you what I have later this week and post it here as well but right now I'm sitting in one of Clarence Geist's hotel rooms typing on a Blackberry while Jen takes a nap.

Ahhh...the price we pay for diligent golf course archeology and in the dirt forensics! 

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle

I'll shoot you what I have later this week and post it here as well but right now I'm sitting in one of Clarence Geist's hotel rooms typing on a Blackberry while Jen takes a nap.

Ahhh...the price we pay for diligent golf course archeology and in the dirt forensics! 

I'll check the weather records. No hurricanes hit the area, but maybe the course was blasted by a storm sometime.

[Joe Bausch]

In a Joe Bunker article that did not show in my initial searches, is this about Ross and Seaview from the May 2, 1915 issue of the Philadelphia Inquirer:

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

I can't see that article on my blackberry but I just got back from loojing at the Ross blueprints.

Its what I thought...tweaks to Wilsons existing course. Some recommendations implemented, some never done, and no fundamental changes to Wilsons course.

I also have pics of all the blueprints with Ross's instructions that I'll get you this week.

Any update on the Til video or too busy playing?  .

[TEPaul]

If you guys are interested in doing a more complete design evolution study of Seaview (Wilson/Ross) I suggest you check the so-called "Agronomy Letters" between Piper and Oakley and Hugh Wilson. I don't think they reflect everything Wilson was doing and thinking with architecture during the teens but seemingly some of it.

Among other things there's some correspondence about the efficacy of taking a good deal of time developing the architecture of golf courses (if various factors allow and permit) and my recollection is they all agreed that would be the ideal (this idea discussed at that time between Wilson and P&O may've even been when and where Flynn got his own ideas and philosophy about letting a course go through a timespan of testing in play before bunkering schemes and such were fully developed and applied); and it seems to me in 1915 and 1916 Wilson may've been a bit preoccupied with upgrading the architecture of Merion East as well as the agronomy. There was a lot going on with Merion's courses in those two years.

He may've basically started the course off for his friend Geist (who eventually became a huge fan and friend of Flynn's). And, again, don't forget Wilson very much had another day job in another profession and he was always an upaid "amateur" never wanting to receive pay for GCA.

There is also something in there from Wilson about doing a fairly comprehensive wetland plan or work or filling in at Seaview, I believe. Wilson actually asked Piper and Oakley if the US Government needed to get into that kind of thing or even if they'd agree to do it or even pay for it for Seaview. My recollection is Piper and Oakley responded they (the US Government) didn't get into something like that for a golf course.

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