What does the educated 18 handicapper want in a golf course?

[Bill_McBride]

I'm a 12 handicap rapidly headed toward 18, so can answer this question.....

To pick one criterion, what  I like most about a golf course is when I have to make decisions on tee shots.  I hate the old RTJ look where's fairway bunker left, fairway bunker right, stripe one or else.  I like central bunkers, cross bunkers, diagonal bunkers, bunkers on one side where you are rewarded by bold play near that bunker.   I think maybe Talking Stick North has the most readily memorable group of that kind of bunkering or other hazards that requires decisions that comes to mind.

With regard to 18 handicappers supporting the game financially, are you nuts JakaB?  There are many more golfers in that part of the bell curve that in yours and in the scratch territory.   As I understand it, 18 is the mean and possibly median handicap.  So that means there are lots more of those guys - and above - buying equipment and paying green fees and dues than the left edge of the bell curve.

For that reason this is a very good thread and discussion.

[Joe Bausch]

FWIW:  I play with 12-16 guys, almost all around 18 handicap, each spring break somewhere.  Last time in Myrtle we played at the Barefoot Resort, with a morning round at the Fazio course, and that afternoon at the Love course.  These guys loved the Fazio course, and did not care for the Love course.  For any of you that have played both courses, I bet you don't find this result surprising at all.  

[John Kavanaugh]

With regard to 18 handicappers supporting the game financially, are you nuts JakaB?  There are many more golfers in that part of the bell curve that in yours and in the scratch territory.

You can not put the same value on the opinions, wants or needs of 5 golfers who play 10 rounds each per year with that as one golfer who plays 50 rounds himself.  If a golfer who plays 10 rounds per year or less cared about architectural features he would play more often.  If they are too poor to play more often then they can not support the game financially.  If they play less than 10 rounds per year for any other reason than financial means then they don't have an opinion that matters anyway.  They just play for the company and not for the golf.

I would like to know the median handicap of the serious healthy golfer with a valuable opinion.  I'd say 14 for people under 60 years old.  Once you are over 60 handicap is no longer a reasonable measure of golfing ability.

[Guy Nicholson]

You can not put the same value on the opinions, wants or needs of 5 golfers who play 10 rounds each per year with that as one golfer who plays 50 rounds himself.

True, but isn't financial support rather than informed opinion what's at question? Because I'd guess most courses are just as happy with the revenue from the five guys playing 10 rounds.

[Ken Moum]

IS IT REASONABLE TO THE 18 HANDICAPPERS TO BARELY MISS A SHOT AND HAVE VIRTUALLY NO CHANCE AT A PAR?

I have a pretty good answer to that having been close 18 earlier this year, and playing almost all my golf lately with a rotating group of ~15 guys that ranges from 12-23 hanidc(Only a couple lower than 15)

The fact is that most 18-20 handicapper will have have succeeded anytime the make bogey on a missed green.

They make WAY more doubles and triples than they do pars when they miss a green.

My short game has alway been my strength, and I could take 6-10 shots off these guys scores if they let me play their ball after they reached regulation.

Bunkers absolutley baffle them, and so does pitching over bunkers. They are at their best when they can putt from off a green, or when they have reasonably consistent rough to pitch out of.

In a cuppy lie, or patchy rough around the green, they get their first attempt on the green once in about 10 tries.

I won't speak for them, but when I was playing to a 16, I wanted fairways wide enough to hit once in a while, and rough that allowed me to at least advance the ball most of the time.

And if you insist on trees, make them thin enough that with a good shot I can advance the ball. My ideal for this is Albuquerque Country Club. It has lots of trees, and given the flat terrain, it needs them.

But they have trimmed and thinned them enough that you aren't chipping out sideways EVERY time you miss a fairway. You probabyl aren't going to hav a shot at the green, but with a smart play, you can gain some ground.

Ken

[jeffwarne]

What's an "educated 18?"

[mark chalfant]

Jim
Variety in holes topography, scenic interest, and length. At least one short  par three and  two well designed par fours under 340 yards. Green  compelxes with  some  nice  interior contours. A course that is challenging to play for  my  more talented golf  buddies ( ie 0-4 hcp)

Philadelphia CC, Whippoorwill,  Pasatiempo, Longmeadow(Ross) and Harrison Hills (Langford) come to mind as exemplars

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bradley,

Well thought out and I agree.  As one of my cohorts likes to say, golf should be enjoyed, not endured.

That is the exact attitude that resulted in titanium clubs and out of control balls.

How many 18 handicaps play enough to support the game financially?  

Wrong on both counts!

Market competition brought us the technological innovation.

Assuming the implication of the second is that the 18 handicaps cannot support the game financially, IMHO they cannot, but probably for a different reason than I believe you imply. There are far more 20+ handicaps than there are 18 and less. I believe those people could easily support the game financially if they are supported with reasonable courses at reasonable prices.

Garland,

Thanks for the defense!

I agree that its common knowledge that the large majority of golfers are about a 20.  I wouldn't quibble is someone said 18 or 22.  I would call JK names for his seemingly dumb inferences, except that I think he may be raising a legit question - of the 8% or so of "core golfers" that play 25 or more rounds a year, it may be that these are lower handicap players, at least in John's mind.

That said, I really don't think so. I think "Golf in America" is portrayed most by the muni under $20, with an annual pass, where seniors play every morning before retiring for cards and booze. As always, I could be wrong.

Slightly OT, but a decade ago, Trains Magazine took the average qualitiet of the US locomotive fleet and named one the "All American (or average) locomotive.

I think Golf Digest could take the qualities of an average golfer, by rounds, course type, handicap, tee shot distance, age, height, weight and hair color and actually pick the All American (i.e., typical) Golfer by who comes the closest.

It would make for an intersting article.  (Brad, you can have the idea first if Golfweek wants it)

[Mark_F]

I want to know if they will risk a double to make a par...

Too right.

I like a good mix of half-par holes.  Especially on a short four, you would generally be hoping to par them, so if you put yourself out of position, you are going to try to make one.

It's probably anathema to mention this here, but I would think a constant diet of undulation and slopes for second shots to be played from is not that favoured.

I know it adds to day to day variety, and interest, and challenge, but it can wear thin to be consistently hitting with the ball either above your feet, or off an upslope, or worse, both.   My admiration for someone who can play Huntington Valley day in, day out, knows no bounds.

I don't mind that sort of stuff within fifty yards of a green.

I would also prefer wildly undulating greens that were kept at a modest pace, than extremely quick greens with modest contour.  

[Jim Johnson]

How many 18 handicaps play enough to support the game financially?  

John,

In my research for a new golf facility, I learned several things...

Only 22% of golfers regularly shoot better than 90 for 18 holes.
For females, the percentage is just 7%. For males, 25%.
The average 18-hole score on a regulation course is 97 for men and 114 for women.
Only 6% of men and 1% of women break 80 regularly.

'Course, whether they play enough to support the game financially is another question. But, obviously, there is a huge % of golfers who shoot 90+ on a regular basis.

JJ

[Phil McDade]

...a well educated 18 wants the same as a well educated lower hcp golfer.

Maybe I should include in the question...

AND WHAT WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE FORMS OF PUNISHMENT OR PENALTY FOR MISSING THE TARGET?

This has been answered by some, but I'm curious if green surrounds that make it very difficult, to impossible, to get down in two are acceptable so long as a ball is not lost...it still means that if you barely miss a shot you are going to make a bogey...that's really the heart of my line of questioning.

IS IT REASONABLE TO THE 18 HANDICAPPERS TO BARELY MISS A SHOT AND HAVE VIRTUALLY NO CHANCE AT A PAR?

Sully:

As for the second bold question, and as it relates to the first one, I'd say:

Sometimes, sometimes not. Like most things in golf, I enjoy a mix of challenges (a recent par 3 thread talked about good courses having a range of lengths for par 3s, an approach I really prefer), and I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a course "aimed" at 18-handicappers (and I'm one of them, on my better days) to have very tough up-and-downs for par should the golfer miss a green. But not 18 relentlessly difficult ones, or missed approaches that are always bunkered or wet. I like the occasional forced-carry-over-water par 3, but four or five of them in a round would bore me. Not to be too formulaic, but in general the tougher up-and-downs ought to come when the miss is with a short-iron, while the more benign ones might be those with long-iron approaches. In addition, I like the idea of one or two truly heroic shots required of an 18-handicapper -- e.g., a 185-yard par 3 fronted entirely by a pond, or a true risk-reward short par 5 that requires a second shot into the green over a creek, or something like that.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

JES II,

Does the 18 handicapper really know what he wants ?

AND

Will you get a consensus on what the 18 handicappers want ?

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

Are scratch golfers smarter than 18-handicap golfers?

As for your second question, that's doubtful.

[Adam Clayman]

Better yet, Why should anyone get what they want? Other than a proper medium to creatively attempt the task at hand.

[CHrisB]

Well said Adam. Play the course as you find it. Try your best to come up with a solution for it.

Baby if you can't change the world, maybe you should just change yourself
--Tom Petty

[JESII]

Pat,

Who said I am looking for a concensus?



Chris and Adam,

Why do you play the courses you play?

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, I play most of my golf at two diametrically opposite styles of golf. One is this countries best real Irish links style course and the other is the opposite of that. Playing golf on a course I prefer is the ultimate in a luxury. Golfing on courses that have been designed to maximize the bottom-line by giving the people, what some people think the other people want, turns out to be a watered down version of a Kangaroo burger. (blatant Mickey D's reference)

I play at the parkland course because of two factors. Price and location.  When there and I am faced with a shot that I cannot attempt because the hand of man has precluded it, I don't throw down my clubs refusing to ever return. I just chuckle at the mindset, and create something else. i.e. chipping out of trees or away from the desired target.

I do disagree with you and the two Tom's about the ability to design for all levels of players. My luxury golf course proves that in spades.

What I want still should have no bearing on what I get.


 

[Sean_A]

Sully, I play most of my golf at two diametrically opposite styles of golf. One is this countries best real Irish links style course and the other is the opposite of that. Playing golf on a course I prefer is the ultimate in a luxury. Golfing on courses that have been designed to maximize the bottom-line by giving the people, what some people think the other people want, turns out to be a watered down version of a Kangaroo burger. (blatant Mickey D's reference)

I play at the parkland course because of two factors. Price and location.  When there and I am faced with a shot that I cannot attempt because the hand of man has precluded it, I don't throw down my clubs refusing to ever return. I just chuckle at the mindset, and create something else. i.e. chipping out of trees or away from the desired target.

I do disagree with you and the two Tom's about the ability to design for all levels of players. My luxury golf course proves that in spades.

What I want still should have no bearing on what I get.


 

I suspect an 18 capper wants what every other golfer wants - to have fun.  The mixture of what makes a game fun may be slightly modified, but essentially the same as for a scratch player.  

Adam - I am with you.  There are far too many courses about which are suitable for a scratch to 20 capper to say the animal doesn't exist.  Now if guys want to stretch this to touring pro all the way to beginner then its a different story, but a needless story as well.

Ciao

[CHrisB]

Chris and Adam,

Why do you play the courses you play?

Sully,
Usually because there is a tournament being played on them

At home, it's a complex answer that goes beyond architecture--things like cost, proximity, crowds, turf conditions, etc.

I guess I have a problem with the very idea of players "getting what they want" from a golf course. I don't see golf as a product you buy (though others do) but rather a challenge you choose to take on. It a game played over a playing field set up by the architect and superintendent, and it's up to me to find a solution to the problems presented by the course. It's not up to the course to be designed or set up in the way I would like.

But maybe I'd feel differently if I were a dues-paying member of a club instead of a public/tournament player.

I still have preferences though, and I do have my favorites, but I can't recall once (in my adult years) coming off a course and wishing it were designed differently so that it would better suit my game.

[Ulrich Mayring]

As I understand it, 18 is the mean and possibly median handicap.

Nope, the number is 33. We have resilient statistical data in Germany, because you need to have a handicap here to get onto most courses. Therefore everyone has a handicap and the average number is 33. There are more than half a million golfers behind that number, so it should be pretty close.

In the US only the most competetive golfers even have a handicap, therefore the average number is far lower, probably around 18, which means an average score of about 97. But those players do not represent the average golfing population. Not by far.

Those bringing in the bulk of the money score a double-bogey as the norm.

Ulrich

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick:

Are scratch golfers smarter than 18-handicap golfers?

In matters that pertain to golf, YES.[/color]

As for your second question, that's doubtful.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Pat,

Who said I am looking for a concensus?

That's my point.
I don't think you'll get one.
I think you'll get a very diverse response from 18 handicappers if you asked them the question in private.[/color]

[Chris Kane]

Does the 18 handicapper really know what he wants ?

I think you'll find the reference was to "educated 18 handicappers".  

[James Bennett]

I want to know if they will risk a double to make a par...

It's probably anathema to mention this here, but I would think a constant diet of undulation and slopes for second shots to be played from is not that favoured.

I know it adds to day to day variety, and interest, and challenge, but it can wear thin to be consistently hitting with the ball either above your feet, or off an upslope, or worse, both.   My admiration for someone who can play Huntington Valley day in, day out, knows no bounds.

Mark

re HVCC golfers, you should see if they can also play shots from a level lie!  A-9, ball above feet, B-9, ball below feet, C-9 first few holes ball below feet, last few holes ball above feet. That is a simplified view.  Sully obviously can play from slopes and level lies (given his wins).  Not so sure about Kyle.  

James B

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

Are scratch golfers smarter than 18-handicap golfers?

In matters that pertain to golf, YES.[/color]

As for your second question, that's doubtful.

Patrick:

I'm not sure I agree with you. As an 18-handicapper myself, I think I've gained an appreciation and knowledge of golf and golf architecture -- and what makes for a challenging and interesting course -- that exceeds many golfers better at the game than I.

I've played with quite a few good golfers, and while some have a true appreciation for architecture and the variety of challenges a well-designed course can bring, some don't. The best golfer I've ever played with has almost zero appreciation for architecture -- he just picks out targets and aims at them, and usually succeeds, because he's a heckuva golfer. When he misses, he simply adjusts and uses his innate talent to get back on track (his ability to get up and down for par after missing a green is so good it's boring to watch). I've talked with him a bit about architecture, and he says he really doesn't think all that much about the things we discuss here on the board. He simply takes aim at his target (fairway, green, hole if he's putting) and executes. He reminds me a bit of a great shooter in basketball, who is able to eliminate everything going on around him and focus simply on shooting what's in his hand into a basket 20 feet away.

It's a learned skill, no doubt, but I'm not sure it's one that necessarily implies a higher level of understanding of golf architecture and design.

Besides, how to account for the timeless appeal of those template holes (which I generally like) built nearly a century ago by someone who never played the game?