Golfers Behavioral Geography

[R_Paulis]

Can anyone envision value to seeing how golfers proceed around a golf course? Would this type of intelligence be helpful to course designers, equipment manufacturers, grounds keepers, etc.?

This type of analysis may have been already conducted using GPS enabled golf carts, but I am unable to locate any research. Golf cart GPS data does have some drawbacks since the cart is usually shared and the obvious restrictions of golf carts on courses around greens, bunkers, etc.

Rather than use GPS cart data, I was thinking of placing GPS type trackers on a golfer's person - with their approval of course.

[JESII]

RAP,

For strategic, architectural purposes? Or for logistical purposes?

[Mike Nuzzo]

I'd like to know why UK golfers are faster than US golfers.

I assume it is because the US players watch and learn from the PGA Tour and the USGA stroke methodology.

Shivas says it is taken up in the pre shot routine - makes sense.

I'd like to know if there is a national psychological difference between the two regions.

Do americans feel like they deserve more and should get to milk every shot?

Cheers

[R_Paulis]

RAP,

For strategic, architectural purposes? Or for logistical purposes?

I am unsure of the purpose for the intelligence gained for I do not work in the golf business - just a fan of GCA. I have collected some sample tracking data (using myself and friends as test subjects) and it got me thinking what this data might be used for should a broader study be conducted...

[TEPaul]

RAP:

I believe that constant observation of what all kinds of levels of golfers do on a golf course is immensely valuable to both architects and superintendents.

This is why I was so impressed by Nick Faldo at Merion. I don't think I've ever seen anyone who's more observant of other golfers within sight as he was and is. He even made a game out of watching their practice swings and then predicting that kind of shot they'd hit and he was right a spooky amount of the time.

[Tom_Doak]

RAP:  I'd love to see data like that.  I think it would show us a lot about the causes of slow play (assuming that it puts a heavier weight line where people are moving more slowly), and about traffic patterns on the course.  I'd love to see whether the foot traffic coming off a green is really spread out on some holes and really concentrated on others, due to bunkering and slopes.

I am not so interested in seeing where all the players wind up on a given day, in terms of the strategy of the hole, though.  The poorer players are almost random in their movements, so it doesn't help to pay too much attention to that.

[John Kavanaugh]

RAP,

Post under your real name and I will lead you to the GCA poster who already has done the research and has the information desired.  You just go to the profile section and make the change, don't forget to enter your password.

[R_Paulis]

RAP,

Post under your real name and I will lead you to the GCA poster who already has done the research and has the information desired.  You just go to the profile section and make the change, don't forget to enter your password.

Thanks in for the lead John. I tried doing a search but GPS returned too many results.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ron,

Thanks for the first step towards a full name.  Here is a link that should help.  I look forward to talking to Ron Paulis in the future.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewyates.html

[R_Paulis]

Ron,

Thanks for the first step towards a full name.  Here is a link that should help.  I look forward to talking to Ron Paulis in the future.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewyates.html

Thanks for the interview lead Mr. Kavanaugh.

I have a bit of experience in being on the unfortunate end of some ID theft so I try to reduce "exposure" online when possible. And Ron is a bit mundane so I prefer to be called Raul or maybe Rochester.

[R_Paulis]

RAP:  I'd love to see data like that.  I think it would show us a lot about the causes of slow play (assuming that it puts a heavier weight line where people are moving more slowly), and about traffic patterns on the course.  I'd love to see whether the foot traffic coming off a green is really spread out on some holes and really concentrated on others, due to bunkering and slopes.

Thanks for the feedback Tom. I am an amateur GIS enthusiast and enjoy trying to represent "movement" and patterns in geography. GPS devices can capture data every few seconds so its simple to get the time variable for analysis purposes.

I understand how there might be limited value in following golfers locations due to the varying levels proficiency. However, if location "tracks" were tied to handicaps, would not that be useful?

[Gary Slatter]

I'd like to know why UK golfers are faster than US golfers.

I assume it is because the US players watch and learn from the PGA Tour and the USGA stroke methodology.

Shivas says it is taken up in the pre shot routine - makes sense.

I'd like to know if there is a national psychological difference between the two regions.

Do americans feel like they deserve more and should get to milk every shot?

Cheers

Are UK golfers faster on US courses?  Orlando might prove it not true.  It's hard to compare but here we have both, on the same playing field. Some (experienced) are faster than others (not experienced).  

I believe golfers are golfers, and with the price of balls being so high, even UK golfers are now "looking" a wee bit longer.  Play on our courses is brisk, until a ball is temporarily
misplaced.

[Dan Herrmann]

Where's Eric Peveto on this thread?  He's into orienteering and GPS and may be able to provide insights.

There as a study on supermarket movement.  The study's results were quite unexpected.  People moved randomly through the store, while designers thought they'd move in an orderly, row-by-row manner.

Personally, I think the speed problem in North America is due to the lack of match play.  It's easy to pick up in a match if you know you're out of a hole, but we've all seen people work to get that 11 on their card.  Shoot - if I'm paying a boatload to play at Bandon, I'm going to finish.  Bandon Dunes #16 has always messed me up, but I've always finished it.

[R_Paulis]

There as a study on supermarket movement.  The study's results were quite unexpected.  People moved randomly through the store, while designers thought they'd move in an orderly, row-by-row manner.

Hello Dan - The Economist recently had an article I believe your referring to on tracking shoppers inside a store. It was not the first study to do this, but the analysis of the tracks and patterns has advanced considerably from earlier studies.

I did not expect "slow play" to be the main focus of an analysis but that's why I asked.

I thought tracking where golfers were on a golf course would be a primary area for analysis. The thought came to me when viewing golf course using Google's Earth. Depending on the resolution of the images, you can start to see some worn pathways (besides the concrete ones).

[RJ_Daley]

I'd love to see whether the foot traffic coming off a green is really spread out on some holes and really concentrated on others, due to bunkering and slopes.

I am not so interested in seeing where all the players wind up on a given day, in terms of the strategy of the hole, though.  The poorer players are almost random in their movements, so it doesn't help to pay too much attention to that.

Tom D., I'm a bit surprised at your comment.  It seems to me that almost anyone could pre-determine, based on bunker placements, mound and hollow locations and next tee consideration, where the traffic on and off the green is going to occur.   The question more so in evaluating a green design is the decision to deal with that or not.  Anotherwords, if you are designing a greens complex, approach and surrounds by best utilizing the entire site for that greens structure based on existing topography, and there is a totally obvious point of on and off the green due to these placements and locations, and you decide to build the best green complex over rearrange the location to fit the entrance and exit traffic pattern, then that is the strong side of the art side of design/architecture over design engineering/construction.   But, if you either have no specific topography on a potential green site (flat) or you rearrange the shaping design to strongly consider the traffic, framing, and purposefully make design decisions about locations of features, then you are on the strong design, engineering/construction side of architecture over the possible lost art opportunities of siting the green for maximum fun VS efficiency.  I don't think either is wrong, it depends on private and less rounds per year play VS high traffic public.

But, having that info on player locational habits and speed up and slowdown points during play seems like valuable info to have.  I don't know how valuable after the design is in the can however, unless remodelling is a consideration.

I'm also not too sure just how random lesser players are in their movements.   I think that tee orientation and slope can pre-determine a tremendous amount of prediction where their tee shot will go a high percentage of a time.  Again, I'm not so sure that this type of data on an existing course is much more useful than for consideration of remodelling, regrading tees, or seriously tampering with greens features and surrounds.  

So yes, remodelling is the venue that this technology makes the most sense in utilization, in my view.

[Sean_A]

I'd love to see whether the foot traffic coming off a green is really spread out on some holes and really concentrated on others, due to bunkering and slopes.

I am not so interested in seeing where all the players wind up on a given day, in terms of the strategy of the hole, though.  The poorer players are almost random in their movements, so it doesn't help to pay too much attention to that.

Tom D., I'm a bit surprised at your comment.  It seems to me that almost anyone could pre-determine, based on bunker placements, mound and hollow locations and next tee consideration, where the traffic on and off the green is going to occur.   The question more so in evaluating a green design is the decision to deal with that or not.  Anotherwords, if you are designing a greens complex, approach and surrounds by best utilizing the entire site for that greens structure based on existing topography, and there is a totally obvious point of on and off the green due to these placements and locations, and you decide to build the best green complex over rearrange the location to fit the entrance and exit traffic pattern, then that is the strong side of the art side of design/architecture over design engineering/construction.   But, if you either have no specific topography on a potential green site (flat) or you rearrange the shaping design to strongly consider the traffic, framing, and purposefully make design decisions about locations of features, then you are on the strong design, engineering/construction side of architecture over the possible lost art opportunities of siting the green for maximum fun VS efficiency.  I don't think either is wrong, it depends on private and less rounds per year play VS high traffic public.

But, having that info on player locational habits and speed up and slowdown points during play seems like valuable info to have.  I don't know how valuable after the design is in the can however, unless remodelling is a consideration.

I'm also not too sure just how random lesser players are in their movements.   I think that tee orientation and slope can pre-determine a tremendous amount of prediction where their tee shot will go a high percentage of a time.  Again, I'm not so sure that this type of data on an existing course is much more useful than for consideration of remodelling, regrading tees, or seriously tampering with greens features and surrounds.  

So yes, remodelling is the venue that this technology makes the most sense in utilization, in my view.

RJ

I think you may have a few cool ideas in that post, but how can I know for sure when Behr is guiding your hand?  Help out a poor guy from the sandy side of the lake.  

As fer slow play - who knows.  I do think the game we play over here is less complicated (ie matchplay).  I also think guys are more conscious about trying to finish in 3.5 hours, however, most of the courses over here setup to make that goal easier.  They tend to be under 6500 yards with tees next to greens.  Listen, I just played Burnham today.  Much of the front 9 was into a fog (120 yard visibility) and much of the back 9 was into a low, blinding sun which was nearly as bad as fog.  We still got round in under 4 hours and it felt slow.  It is possible, only expectations need to be altered.

Ciao

[RJ_Daley]

Sean, 'shirley' you can see that it is not Behr that guides my hand, tongue, and mind, but Berra...  

[Eric Franzen]

[

As fer slow play - who knows.  I do think the game we play over here is less complicated (ie matchplay).  I also think guys are more conscious about trying to finish in 3.5 hours, however, most of the courses over here setup to make that goal easier.

Since you are allowed to adjust your handicap during social rounds here in Sweden, 18 holes practically takes forever. Everyone plays stableford and I have even experienced players (on a full course) walking back to hit another one when they haven't been able to find their tee shot.

I would personally love to see Swedish clubs try to adopt a matchplay only policy for prime hours during the weekend. I am quite certain that it would speed things up in the long run together with a more healthy outlook on course setup.

[Brad Huff]

Can anyone envision value to seeing how golfers proceed around a golf course? Would this type of intelligence be helpful to course designers, equipment manufacturers, grounds keepers, etc.?

This type of analysis may have been already conducted using GPS enabled golf carts, but I am unable to locate any research. Golf cart GPS data does have some drawbacks since the cart is usually shared and the obvious restrictions of golf carts on courses around greens, bunkers, etc.

Rather than use GPS cart data, I was thinking of placing GPS type trackers on a golfer's person - with their approval of course.

Are you talking more gathering per hole data or per round data?  I think the division in question would lead to 2 different places.

[R_Paulis]

Are you talking more gathering per hole data or per round data?  I think the division in question would lead to 2 different places.

GPS data is collected for the entire round at 5 second intervals.

[Dan Smoot]

Ron,

Thanks for the first step towards a full name.  Here is a link that should help.  I look forward to talking to Ron Paulis in the future.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewyates.html

John, thank you for reposting this link.

Pace of play in the US is getting worse, even if you thought it couldln't get worse.

This Pace of Play interview really rings true at the course I predominately play.  We have a dogleg par 5 that plays into a crosswind with very high sagebrush on the inside of the dogleg.  The length of carry is such that many are tempted to try even though the risk of not making it can ruin a round.  The wait for ball searches can be unbearable.  There is talk of tearing out the sagebrush and placing a lake on the inside of the dogleg to speed up play.  Given that we are in a high desert, very arid (6 -8 inches ann. precip),  I don't like the idea of a lake but I can't deny it would help the situation.

A similar dogleg par 4 with equally high but with very dense sagebrush that must be carried to an elevated Cape type green was a similar problem area.  You could be standing ready to hit second shots and have people pop out of the sagebrush, never seeing them.  Fortunately, the management team made the decision to rip out most of the sagebrush and turn it into a very large waste bunker.  A great improvement.

Another item in the article discussed the placement of par 3's in the opening sequence of holes.  Our third hole is a par 3 of only 165 yards, however this too is a bottleneck in play.

Another item not discussed was spacing of tee times.  Our course has 7 minute spacings which might be the most debilitating to a good pace of play.  Contrast this to Bandon, a 10 minute spacing is heaven like, where I have never felt pushed or held up.

The US does indeed have far too many course with the excessive distances between green and tees.