pebble's small greens

[Matt Kardash]

i often hear peeble beach praised as this course with small "shot making" greens...but i am sure i am right when i say that if this course was opened today it would be attacked by us for having such small greens...if you look at the 8th, which is one of the world's great holes, you will see a hole with such a small green for a fairly long shot..if the wind is blowing hard i don't even know how you go about hitting the green!look at a new course like whistling straits, they made greens like 3 times bigger then those at peeble beach just so you can actually hit the greens in the wind...maybe i'm wrong, but i find it kind of funny

[Mike Benham]

I agree as "we" have our opinions greatly altered by the reputation or inaccessability of a course.

If the 8th at Pebble was at Spanish Bay, which has many critics, and part of a "new" course, it would get ridiculed as being a gimick hole ... I can read the hole description "Position off the tee is key so a 3-wood might be the right choice.  If you are not a long hitter, don't put the headcover on the 3-wood just yet as you will need it to attempt to carry Carmel Bay on your second shot.  If you are lucky to hit one of the 5 bunkers around this postage stamp green, you will be lucky to keep your recovery shot within 15 feet of the hole.  If you are below the hole, take 2 extra clubs when you putt.".

[A_Clay_Man]

I have never heard of a course critcized for having small greens. And the truth is that on the eigth at Pebble, you never aim for the green. So it's plenty big enough for the shot required and even with a three wood the uphill apron and green usually receive them nicely.

[Bob_Huntley]

My only complaint about the small greens at Pebble is when the place is taken over by the USGA for the Open Championship. The 8th in particular looks more like a trampoline, with balls bouncing off the concrete-like suface several feet in the air. Play the course without ridiculous green speeds and the playing surface is more than adequate.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I do not think this group would attack a course for small greens.  

In fact, wasn't part of the reason that Harbour Town was so celebrated, the small greens?

I love small greens, part of the reason that RTJ Sr's style lacks appeal for me.

[Paul Richards]

Ben:

Part of what makes both Pebble and Harbour Town interesting and great courses, at least to me, is that they do have small greens.

[Matt Kardash]

Ben:
yes, harbour town was and is celebrated for its small greens, but at harbour town you don't have to contend with 30 mile per hour winds(expect maybe for the last 2 and a half holes)..

[Mike Benham]

Architects design larger greens today for maintenance purposes and playability (more pin locations).  When Pebble was built, I suspect not a lot of dirt was moved when building the greens, nor were bulldozers available to move dirt easily and quickly.

The idea of small versus large greens is only an issue to me when the type of shot being normally played into the green is taken into consideration.  At the 8th at Pebble, you are usually hitting a medium to long iron into a very small green (I think it is the smallest on the course) and I wouldn't consider that a "fair" design feature.

[Paul Richards]

Mr. Benham:

"Fair" - maybe not.  But interesting, definately.  And it is still one of the great four pars in the world!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Paul,
That is what I was getting at.  Part of the reason that I love them both too.

When I build my golf course, small interesting greens are the major demand I will have.

Matt,
I understand your point, and do not disagree.

I just do not fully buy that you need large greens in windy conditions, there are plenty of examples in the UK of this.

Still, I understand you, but I think that as much as it is tough in windy conditions, the small greensite makes that such a wonderful hole.  One of the best par fours around!

Mr. Benham,
If there was a designer that built the 8th at Pebble today, I would get on a plane tomorrow to see it.  I do not think that hole is even slightly gimmicky.

[Bob_Huntley]

Seth Raynor generally built greens of a generous size. When one of his courses was completed in 1926 the greens were the smallest that he had ever produced. That was fine, then, for a small membership. However some 75 years later when the membership had increased some five-fold there were very few pin positions and the wear and tear became apparent. The architect brought in to renovate the course enlarged the greens and gave the super a much easier task of pin placement. Naturally there was some bitching by the old guard but on the whole the larger greens have achieved the objective.

My own view is that the smaller greens were better.

[mike_beene]

I like small greens as long as chipping(as opposed to grass explosions from greenside rough)stays in the game.The one green I don't like at Pebble is 17,in particular the left pin position.To much of a hit it in the clowns mouth feeling.Didn't Kite hit 4 wood last round of his open?Nicklaus pulls 1 iron into stick.To much luck.It's just a field that happens to be next to the ocean.I still love this course.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

It is one of the great par 4's in the world. Small greens are a great things from my way of looking at things. I love the premium it puts on the short game to get up and down. Your iron play must be on mark too.

[Pete Lavallee]

I've always loved small greens too! Although I recognize the difficulty presented by a large RTJ green, I never get the same thrill from knocking one close on such an expansive target. But what is the lure of small greens? In general, I think they need less overall slope to be interesting, a really large green needs almost freakish slope to provide real interest, with TOC being a great example of how to make big greens work really well.