Hidden Creek course profile is posted

[Ran Morrissett]

Something special happened while Hidden Creek was being built.

From the routing to the tree clearing to the green and bunker construction to the grow-in, everything kept falling into place. The right people were always on site making the right decisions each and every time.

The end result is what seems like an aura of perfection about this newly opened Coore & Crenshaw course as it is hard to imagine any course being better thought out or constructed. In some ways, it reminds me of Swinley Forest, which I have always considered as perhaps the perfect inland course for a lifetime of play. As with Swinley, there are courses that are longer and harder but few are more enjoyable for a game time and time again.

Set on 750 acres with no homes or outside intrusions, C&C's routing highlight the finest natural land forms on the site, which is surprisingly rolling for south New Jersey. But the hand work of the architectural features is what really highlights the sophisticated effort that was made here. Just look at the photo of the bunker that obscures the right side of the 2nd green and you may well agree that the attention to detail is extraordinary.

Bill Coore, the last man in the world to point the spot light on their work, started murmuring to the owner toward the end of the project, "You know, Roger, this course  really is turning out well." There is no higher praise.

Cheers,

[TEPaul]

I'll tell you something that's sort of interesting in my opinion that Ran said in the beginning of the Hidden profile. He said that Coore (and Crenshaw) signed to do the project after Coore walked the site for three solid weeks and that that's longer than most architects spend on site to build a course.

It may be true that's longer than most archtiects spend on site building a course but to get Bill and Ben (who actually are in the habit of signing on at separate times when they individually become convinced of the validity of the project and that they're each on the same page with the owner and vice versa) three weeks is not long at all for them. You just ask some other owners about how long it can take Ben and Bill to look over a property before agreeing to do the project and for both to sign on and how much time particularly Bill might spend analyzing a site before signing on.

If you check around, three weeks on site and three weeks after first seeing the property may actually be close to record time for them. I bet a large part of that was that they already knew Roger Hansen!

If we ever got to do the Ardrossan Farm project for Gulph Mills and I believe Ben and Bill would have finally agreed to do it but getting them to sign on (after a good deal of analysis on Bill's part) may have taken a solid year or two!!

All those good things tend to happen when an architect basically sticks to a schedule of only two courses at one time max!

[Jeff_Lewis]

Wow. Great stuff, Ran. Thanks.

[Jeff Mingay]

I don't think I've ever wanted to visit and STUDY a new course as much as Hidden Creek, strictly based on the photos I've seen of the place and the opportunities I've had to talk with James Duncan about the course and its lay out.

Duncan "ran the job" for Coore & Crenshaw and derseves some recognition for his contributions to the lay out of Hidden Creek and its construction... along with guys like Jim Craig and Jeff Bradley, and the other usual suspects of course.

Wow, those Bradley bunkers in the Course Profile photos are about as good as they get, or so it seems.

Hats off to Roger Hansen too. It takes an intelligent owner who understands the process and procedures for a course like Hidden Creek to become a reality as well.

Great stuff!

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,

Working for a committee of one is a huge plus and C&C have had that luxury at several projects including SH, FH and here. In this case, the "committee" even flew down and toured Rockport CC fifteen years ago (!) so it's safe to say that there existed a shard mind set between the owner and architect for an extended period of time.

Jeff,

I agree and HV rewards close study. We can cry all we want and go on and on about the Golden Agers but C&C's hands-on approach with a talented and dedicated crew is the zenith of great architecture.

Cheers,

[TEPaul]

In a real effort in current architectural analysis concerning  how today's golfers generally regard architecture and how they react to various kinds of architecture, Hidden Creek is a really good example although unfortunately some of the reaction to it is pretty depressing and does in fact show where golfers' appreciation is (or I guess I should say isn't).

I think both Coore and Crenshaw and Roger Hansen too realized there was a good likelihood that Hidden Creek could be a misunderstood course architecturally.

And with some people they were right. Some people who have played the course (and some members) have said the holes are not memorable enough (not enough WOW), the holes are not that distinct from each other, that the fairways are too wide and there isn't enough to think about off some of the tees. These same people also say many of the greens are extremely large and consequently that results in too much 3 putting and such!

Is there a single reason not to be completely depressed over these kinds of reactions? I can't think of a reason not to be depressed over those kinds of reactions.  It tells me how far removed modern golfers have gotten from what once was and what is again some very sophisticated golf architecture.

Sophisticated in the fact that the course doesn't really show you a lot strategically unless you really pay attention and look at it closely and probably feel the ground, the scale and the dimensions. Hidden Creek is definitely not a golf course that's high on "road mapping"!! This will be a course where on many holes it won't be good enough to just figure out what you have to the middle and play accordingly--you'll have to do a bit more thinking than that.

And Hidden Creek is a fairly low profile visual design that will be much about the ground game in all kinds of aspects--that is definitely what C&C, Duncan, Hansen, Riggs et al are gearing towards.

Also like some of the other interesting courses that have been built recently including Applebrook and probably Rustic Canyon ultimately are second shot and/or approach shot designs. Not a lot of individual or solely incremental shot requirment in and of itself, in the absolute, particularly off some of the tees!! So many golfers today have come to expect to have to solve a major problem on every shot only in and of itself with sometimes just one dimensional execution!  In this regard so much of what is perceived as strategy is only in individual shots and doesn't relate well enough to the progression of shot strategies as golfers advance down golf holes. Courses like Hidden have some of the best in progressive strategy--the kind where strategies and particular choices sometimes seem to have no real meaning occasionally on a shot or in  some area but on study and experience have great meaning but only as they relate to what comes later which of course today is not well understood or even recognized.

The reactions of some are depressing but I'm going to give those that don't seem to understand it or appreciate it at this point enough credit and I'm going to believe that eventually they're going to figure out the reasons why they're constantly 3 putting or making bogie or worse is not about the golf course but about what they are NOT seeing and understanding about the golf course because it just doesn't happen to be as obvious as they've come to expect it to be.

I have no idea how Roger or the club might accomplish this but I would encourage all those members and guests who play the golf course who have any strength at all to play the course from the back regardless of what their handicaps are.

I would very much encourage the same thing at Applebrook. One of the weaknesses of Applebrook, in my opinion, is the difference in total card length between the tips and the next set of tees is 500+ yds. And that differenc is way too much. Strong golfers are playing the course from the middle tees simply because they think their handicaps dictate they should and they're getting the wrong impression of the course. The clubs should make them play from the tips or set new tees and tee block somehow only 150-200 yds different from the tips!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

Special individuals are usually responsible for the concept and creation of special golf courses.

People like Roger Hansen, Lowell Schulman, Ken Bakst, Mike Keiser, Dick Youngscap and Steve Wynn make it possible to turn a dream into a reality.

They commit their ideas, time, effort and finances to help insure the success of the project.

They are to be praised every bit as much as the accomplished architects who transform the dream into a special golf course.

Hopefully, individuals like Roger Hansen and the golf course he created will inspire others to pursue their golf course dreams.

[Craig Rokke]

It's nice to read about a firm that sets such high standards for itself, and then follows through on them.

With regard to Tom Paul's mentioning of the gap between
back and regular markers being so great at Applebrook, I was
surprised to hear that. But he is right: 6285 vs 6830, close to
550 yards. I'd be curious to hear how that difference came about, because I think it's more pronounced than at a typical Hanse design. I'd agree that that disparity is pretty significant.

Nice job on the write up, Ran.

[Fred Ruttenberg]

I enjoyed the write up very much. I read it before playing the course today and I found myself looking for the features you mentioned. I agree with Tom Paul that the course does not have the WOW factor that many other courses in the area have. However, the course is just fun to play and becomes more so each time I go there.

I disagree with Tom Paul about playing the back tees. They are just too difficult for some of us.

[Ran Morrissett]

Fred,

I agree with you that Tom's insistence to play the back markers at HC is curious - not much joy for a guy who drives it 225 yards on such holes as 6, 10 and 12 from the back - perhaps Tom will further explain his thinking?

The difference between mid and back markers are HC is ~400 yards (6872 vs. 6485) with 100 yards of that being in the two par fives on the front.

Indeed, who really cares where tee markers are? As with most courses, the ideal set-up is generally a mixed set.

Cheers,

[Slag_Bandoon]

Rejoice!  No water hazards.  I guess they Hid the Creek real good.  The place looks heavenly.  Great report Ran.  

[Pete Moss]

Also many thanks to Dan Proctor,Dave Zincan(sorry Dave about spelling of last name) and the tremendous work done by the labor crew. These guys seem to miss out on the accolades that are throne about by individuals who have probably never touched a rake or shovel in their entire existance. Not to say that the owners,architects and their crews of artists don't deserve the praise for their works, let the praise trickle on down to the whole group of men or women that participate in creating such masterpieces as Hidden Creek.

[John Morrissett]

I had the good fortune to play Hidden Creek this afternoon.

Partly because several participants on this site enjoyed the privilege of seeing Friars Head during construction, that course has experienced a fair amount of talk (and with good reason!).  As a result, Hidden Creek, which was built at the same time as FH, has come in somewhat under the radar, but I hope the course will now receive its due, as it is outstanding.

The setting is terrific, set among 750 acres to ensure that nothing will intrude on the proper playing of the game.

The course may well be the most consistent Coore and Crenshaw course I have played.  What is everyone's least favorite hole??? Tough question!  

The pacing and variety of holes are tremendous.  The course "flows" quite well, with the stretch of 10-12 particularly interesting (475, 120, 465).

As Ran keeps reminding me, I have never played Swinley Forest, yet I imagine the overall "look" of several holes at HC is similar, particularly the 15th.  

Overall, Hidden Creek is a strong success at fulfilling its role -- as an enjoyable and fun course for members and their guests to play time and time again.  How can you ever grow tired of the holes (e.g., 4, 8, 11) and their varied greens?

Favorite holes: 4, 8, and 10 (with the 10th as my favorite), with 3, 11, and 12 a hair behind.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

The course looks like a hell of a lot of fun -- the appreciation of Nature and craftsmanship is apparent. How thick is the fescue? The 4th looks fabulous, as does the 11th, how would you evaluate the par-3s as a group?

[Andy Silis]

WOW!!!-------------Golf as it was meant to be! Phenomenal pictures and write up Ran! C&C and their fabulous crew deserve the highest architectural kudos possible! Oh, to have this type of course here in Chicago. As I travel a lot for business on the East Coast I hope to have the good fortune to possibly play it someday!----Thank you also Roger Hansen for having the vision to create something special and enduring for future generations of golfers to appreciate and enjoy!!!!!!

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,

Taken as a set, the one shotters are very diverse, requiring something like a three wood, five iron, pitch, and three iron into the 4th, 7th, 11th, and 14th respectively.

The 7th is noteworthy in that it was the one "create something from nothing"  hole and C&C did a great job of doing just that. I wish I could have got a decent picture of it but never did so there is not one in the course profile.

The 4th is destined to be the most famous hole on the course (I suppose) and is my favorite long C&C one shotter that I've seen. For no good reason, the 11th reminds me a little of 15 at Kingston Heath.

Cheers,

[Bye]

I think these pictures are spectacular AND the course looks fantastic, but...... just let me ask one question -

What would the comments/impressions be if the bunkers were grass faced and the roughs were long green grass? Most of these pictures feature the bunkers and tall grass, it's hard to see the actual strategy of the individual hole.

My opinion, I think the playing conditions would be similar but the visuals and aesthetics would be reduced and most would be touting this as an average course.

[brad_miller]

Great profile, congrads to all involved, that quarry feature on the par 5 looks awesome! Sure looks like a FUN, interesting course to play over and over again in different wind conditions.

Roger, what are the normal wind conditions on the site? Can anyone comment on how the green contours compare with FH's?

[Ran Morrissett]

Bye,

If it was green grass everywhere, the course would no doubt lose visual appeal and its loose connection with the rustic heath courses.

If the playing corridors were narrow, some of the holes couldn't exist/play the way they do as playing angles/strategy would be lost. The player weighs risk/rewards on every full shot on the course with the possible exception of the 18th tee ball where not but so much is gained by being on either side of the fairway unless the hole is back left or front right.

However, even with green grass and narrow corridors, the excellent routing would exist and raise the course above the norm.

Still, built by a different architect, the end result of Hidden Creek could have been average as you suggest:  many an architect would have headed for the lower portion of the property to get to the wetlands at the expense of using the more interesting land forms on the upper portion, a general lack of strategy generally exists at 90% plus of tree lined courses, the lack of contrast via the fescues would have cost the course its unique visual appeal, and I can see a course with USGA greens that are more rigid in appearance and whose surrounds aren't nearly as conducive to the ground game.

That were lots of reasons why this could have been just another course; fortunately, such is not the case  

Cheers,

[Bye]

Ran,
Thanks for the response. Regarding the rootzone mix issue, is it my understanding that they built the greens with "unimproved" native material and then created their differing seed lines as they saw fit?

Believe me, the bunker pictures will be in the hands of one of my contractors this week. A picture is worth a thousand words!

[Anthony_Nysse]

I played Hidden Creek at the end of May with Jeff Bradley. I found the course to be perfect for the setting, and from what I gathered,  perfect for the members. The fescues were just starting to brown out a bit. I thought that every green complex was diffeerent from the ones before it and after it.(What about the back swale on #2? ) Nothing looks forced there and it appears to have been there for a while. I think that Ross or Raynor would be in love with HC. There are options galore on almost every hole, ie-#2, #8, #12, etc...I love #11...what a cool par 3. Doesn't have to be long to be a tough par. I really hope that this course sneeks up in the rankings for Best New. I hope that it stires some of the same discussions that Chechessee did down south. Chechessee was so different and just fit the site, I think that the same thng is going to happen at HC. AWESOME JOB C&C

[kclarke]

How does the course compare to the heath courses? Are the mounds behind 4 green in keeping with the rest of the course?
Is 8 green in a punchbowl what was dug out?I have played a goodly number of courses in New Jersey but  don't recall seeing one like this either in the state or in the north east. Why wouldn't other clubs encouarage the same "look" or is it expensive to maintain? Thank you for any answers.

[Ran Morrissett]

KClarke,

The 8th green doesn't sit in a manufactured punchbowl ala something like the 4th at Fishers Island or the 7th at Camargo, though I can see from the picture how that's easy to think. Rather, the green starts some 10-20 yards past the brow of the hill but there are no containment mounds/walls behind the green or to its sides.

The mounds behind the 4th green are probably the biggest on the course and in this case, they consist of where the gravelly, sandy soil was pullled back before C&C filled in the green complex with the clean sand, so form follows function to a certain degree.

In a unique touch, similar with the heath courses, there are random piles of dirt scattered across the course that were dropped and played with (I think Dave Axland said) by a rubber tire loader (in fact, there is one such pile just behind the 4th tee). You tell me what you think of it based on the picture from the 4th tee but I think it looks great.

As for Hidden Creek vs. the heath courses, it stacks up hole for hole with most that I've seen, including the famous Sunningdale Old, while exuding the same effortless charm and rustic appeal as a place like West Sussex or Swinley Forest. Plus, given how hard C&C and the boys worked on site, Hidden Creek lacks the odd clunker like the 9th at West Sussex or further afield, the 16th at Woodhall Spa.

Cheers,

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Ran,
Great profile of a special place. Did you get the feeling that this was the type of site that most architects would have written off as ordinary, but which they will now add to the list of great sites Coore and Crenshaw seem to keep accidentally stumbling upon and merely doing what any other architect would have done?
Geoff

[Todd_Eckenrode]

That looks phenomenal in pictures, and great profile, Ran.  Almost a book!  Anyone...where is it exactly, and how far from Pine Valley?