NGLA 11th hole Plateau questions.

[R.S._Barker]

Hello everyone,

By now you know where this thread is going, so I'll avoid the long intros and get to the point. I have a couple questions about the 11th hole at NGLA, aptly named Plateau :

First off, I've been blown away by each of the holes at NGLA so far, but the 11th is a heart stopping hole that might just be my favorite of the par 4's ( that I've studied so far ), and thats saying a ton for this course.  

1)  From the tee, I can plainly see the uphill drive, although from the looks of it, the fairway levels off pretty quickly and then starts to plummet downward towards the road sitting beyond the mounds. Whats stunning to me - and here lies the question - is I see the same type of swale that C.B. so aptly used on the right part of the fairway on the 2nd Hole Sahara ..but the problem is I'm seeing it from up near the green looking back, so I'm not sure if this is indeed a swale similiar in design, or if it might be an optical illusion.

Is there a falloff or deep depression right at the end of the first fairway ?

If so, what would be an educated guess as to it's depth.

Finally, would it be wrong to assume that IF the swale exsists, that a teeshot that ends up down there would have a blind second into the green - because of the mounds fronting the access road?

I would also hazard that the key off the tee, is to avoid the huge deep bunker to the right off the tee, yet stay far enough back to avoid going down into the swale for a deadly second shot.

2) Am I imagining it, or from the first fairway ( prior to the road ), the fairway down by the green is sloped from left down to the right, and yet the green is sitting on a relatively flat area ?.

If so, what a fantastic design implication. Hit your second far enough left to use the fairway to funnel the ball down to the green, OR try and fly on, landing on the 2 tiered green, AND land on the proper level. Dicey and brilliant !.

3) This green is amazing, and totally in character for this hole. From the looks of it, the front plateau ( closest to the pin ) is slightly lower than the one in the back ( maybe a couple inches at most ), and it looks like the entire green is fairly flat, except for the lowest section, where I detect a slight depression.

My question is, what would be a good guess for the heigth of each of the two higher plateaus ?

I have an image of a groundskeeper putting in a new pin position on the lowest shelf, and it looks as if those plateaus are about 2 1/2 to 3 feet above the lowest section. Would this be close ?  

Finally, in regards to the fairway nearest the green, is there much undulation to the right of the green ?.

It looks fairly flat in that area, as if a shot hit to the right of the green could be easily putted onto the lower section...not that I'd want to try that with a pin on the front OR back shelf for that matter.

IF I played this hole, I'd be farther back on the fairway for my second ( based on my 250 yard length off the tee ), which would leave me anywhere from 160 to 190, and in any case, I'd absolutely get as close to the green as possible, and take my bogey and walk to the 12th.

Thanks again,

[TEPaul]

R.S.

It's funny, the way you're describing the first half of the hole, I'm not really recognizing the description--maybe I'm not very observant. For some reason, this is the one hole there I probably have less recollection of the details in that first fairway section but I don't recall a swale anything like on #2.

The sensation on this hole is one of just driving over a hill that blinds what's over it. The aiming point is one of the nice houses way out over the pond past #14, I think. But the drive here although blind is quite generous with a shoulder on the right side of the fairway running downhill and probably bringing the ball left some or right some depending where you land on it.

Most good players seem to use less than driver here so as not to run into the berm by the road. I would say the farther down the fairway you go the more blind the second shot gets. Interestingly if you miss-hit or stay well back on the right side shoulder of this fairway you do have a view of hte second half of the hole and the green over the berm by the road.

The second half is really very flat naturally with bunkers along the right and I believe some moundy things sort of in the left side of the fairway near the green (which can blind out the left side of the green). There may be something else behind the green left that lends some kind of visual scale but I can't recall what it is.

The green is truly unusual (don't know if I've ever seen anything remotely like it). As such that may be the reason I can't recall what all is around it. The green very much rivets your attention.

How to approach this green if the pin is on the tier left is a quandry to me. The mid section of the green though (by far most of the green surface is flat on natural grade and behind it the back tier which is wide and quite shallow. But the left tier is really quite narrow (from the approach) and it also plays shallow--even if chipping to it from in front.

I can see this green clearer in my mind's eye but it's still very hard to describe. In a way this green and its surrounds may be one of the more representative ones of all NGLA is--both odd and oddly beautiful but clearly man-made which shows but with straight lines (the tiers) that somehow work both visually and definitely in playability. Maybe the straight flat top lines of both tiers as well as the very on grade flat front section is why this hole is called "plateau". The top profile lines on this green might give one the impression of a "mesa" effect--which works interestingly visually on this flat section of the course on the second half of the hole.

Probably the safest thing to do on this hole if the pin is on either tier is to get in the lower middle and putt from there. How to get a 2nd approach to the left tier is sort of a mystery as the front of it is a quick upslope (killing a run-up) and flying a ball to it is dangerous. Getting the ball to the back tier through the lower middle is not that hard though.

This is a green that the runup shot probably works the best (other than to the left tier!) of any hole on the course and it's probably used the most. The really difficult thing to do, I would think is to putt the ball from one teir to the other as the upslopes to them are sharp and to go from one to the other you'd be hitting both upslopes at a diagonal!!

Very different hole indeed and from the first fairway you can just see the tops of cars passing by.

GeorgeB may explain the redesign characteristic of this hole or he may not. I understand that Nicklaus (or maybe Maxwell) did something to the first section of this hole although I think the club is trying to deny any redesign on this course.

I can't imagine, however, that the berm by the road on this hole and #8 would have been built by MacDonald and Raynor.

This is a very unusual hole throughout--one some probably love a lot and others are very perplexed by. It's definitely a MacD/Raynor type hole with the sharp manufacturing look to portions of it. But like all those types of holes at NGLA this one works very well and is very interesting to play.

This is really a hole of an era to me--one that definitely feels  pre WW1 throughout. I don't believe anyone would built one like this again--at least not in it's entirety.

[R.S._Barker]

TEPaul,

Thank you for the reply as it does help with my visuallizing the hole. I posted the image I have which is looking back up the fairway from the green to my gallery page on my website, so that I might recieve some thoughts about it, since it seems that it's just an illusion that led me to believe this hole has a deeper swale at the end of the first fairway.

Here is the link :

http://silverleaf_design.tripod.com/gallery.htm

Thanks again,

[SPDB]

R.S. - is all of this research to produce a NGLA course playable on Links, or some other computer golf game?
just curious.

[Sebonac]

The first fairway is not too original....A few years back....mounds were put in in front of the road so players would not accidentally nail a car with their second shot.  After this was done, players were left almost in a bowl on this first fairway and you had a blind second shot from almost anywhere on it....Karl later raied the right half of this fairway a few feet soethat from most of it unless you are very close to the mounds by the road...you can actually see the green or at least the flag....the right side of the fairway is a bit higher than the left...It is not a hard four with the pin in the middle....but put the pin on the front left plateau or the back right....and it gets squirrely.....

[Charles_P.]

The raising the 11th fairway in front of the berm, referred to by Sebonac, is the alteration that was recommended by Nicklaus that Tom Paul recalls (though the work was done in-house).

[R.S._Barker]

SPDB,

Actually, I'm studying NGLA because I dearly love Classic Golf Design. Some of todays designers should stop throwing courses out there to the masses just because they have a " name " and the ability to get someone to pay them handsomely to do so.

NGLA along with many of the real golf courses that are featured on this site shows the world that golf is not " a good walk spoiled ", but somthing to be respected, honored, and studied so that these treasures never fade away.

Current designers like Crenshaw, Strantz and Doak - and many others have shown they understand the roots of Classic Golf Course design, and we as a community not only owe it to our past to cherish these wonderful courses, but also to look to the future and cheer on those brave souls that have the vision to show the golfing world that Golf Course design is a passion worth understanding.

NGLA is the best course on the planet in my humble opinion, and where else can one truly understand the future, without studying the past. )

Take care,

[GeoffreyC]

RS Barker- welcome aboard- finer words have not be posted on GCA!

You're now forgiven for the crack about the 17th at Sand Hills   . If you ever get the privledge to go there I predict you will be as moved by both the beauty and playability of every hole as I was.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RS Barker,

I'd agree with Tom Paul,
The first fairway bears little resemblence to the fairway at #2.

The approach to the green does not funnel the ball into the green from the corners of the green.

Some players prefer to throttle back of the tee to have a clear view of the green, others like to take it as far as possible without going into the berm rough, accepting the blind shot for the shorter distance.

The hole tends to play downwind, and when the pin is on the left tier it is a difficult tier to hold.

SPDB,

I got the same feeling, still do.

[Guest]

He's making the course for the PGA2000 golf sim game.

[R.S._Barker]

I'm going to clear this matter up once and for all.

When I post these messages I am inherently interested in straight information on NGLA, because unlike most of the members here, I rarely ever get the chance to play any " real courses " like NGLA, Muirfield Village, Fisher's Island, and other fantastic designs. I've played Lookout Mountain, Camargo, GlenMoor ( a local private course designed by Jack in Canton ), Muirfield Village, Firestone, Pinehurst #2 and #3, and a slew of 2 and 3 star courses in a 5 state area. But that was some 15 years ago.

Way before I ever started my PGA 2000 version I was studying NGLA and have studied other courses that many here know quite well.

Firestone
Portmarnock
Royal New Kent
Muirfield Village
Camargo
Lookout Mountain

and a couple local courses that have some history, granted not as much as the courses listed above - and at this site, but still worth my time.

I ask these detailed questions also because I am dyslexic, and have in my possesion some 400 odd images of NGLA which I've been slowly studying. My questions for each hole deal with specific areas that the pictures do not portray, or to fill in the blanks on specific information - like the depth of the swale on the 2nd Hole Sahara. As someone whom fights dyslexia on a daily basis, I have to form a mental image of the hole step by step, and without actually seeing the course, these gents here have helped me fill in those blanks in my mind.

I have been nothing but honest in my detailed study of NGLA and my signature shows just HOW I feel about this course. Heck I've even been asked by a few members here if I plan on persuing a book deal on Seth Raynor, which is still a possibility.

Finally, for those members here that are fellow golf sim designers like myself, they all know me and like them, I respect everyones opinion here. Especially Gents like TE Paul, Tommy Nacarto, Mike Cirba, Charles Phillips, Patrick Mucci and many, many others.

George Bahto gets a special thank you from me - because without his interview from here and other email conversations that I've had with him - well, my website would not even be possible.

Speaking of that, I will also note that my website on Classic Golf Course Design was up long before I even considered doing NGLA for ANY golf sim.

Since some people believe that the only way to make a post here is to hide behind the ever popular Guest, well that says a whole lot to me about their character, or lack thereof.

Take care,

[Bruceski]

Scott,

Your being a golf sim designer is nothing to be ashamed of. You do it very well, and you actually educate people about courses that they'll never get to play in real life.

Keep up the good work, and view it as an extension of your passion for GCA.